29 Replies Latest reply on Dec 11, 2017 5:18 PM by Christian Chu

    General Drafting Standards & Practices

    Joe Cervantes

      Our company all though huge is in a bit of disarray when it comes to leadership in practices and standards. We are in the process of modifying our title blocks again for increased automation with EPDM.  The title block areas reserved for the original "drawn by" and "checked" are trying to be changed by a department that knows nothing about drafting practices and standards.  As far as I know those two areas are like a sacred cow to most people I have ever talked to and all engineers working with me. Is there a specific ASME standard, perhaps one of the Y14 series, that states those fields are for use the originating drafter and checker?  This other department is trying to convert those areas into the "revised" and (revision) "approved by" when the drawing is rev'ed up. Thoughts, comments, is there a specific standard or should I just roll over play dead?

        • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
          Jeff Holliday

          There are different methods followed by many people. As a rule, I have always maintained them as reflecting the original info. If the drawing is still carrying the same number/ident, then it is not a new creation. Any change to it would then be added to the rev history instead of changing the original info. This is the practice we were required to follow when I was hand-drafting to Mil-Spec standards.

          • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
            J. Mather

            Joe Cervantes:

            ... Thoughts, comments, is there a specific standard or should I just roll over play dead?

            A revision history is so basic, that I couldn't be motivated to even bother trying to locate a standard.

            If it isn't standard - it certainly should be.

            Fight for a Revision History block.    (Resisting temptation to reference Hillary Clinton emails, or maybe not...)

            • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
              Matthew Lorono

              ASME Y14.100 covers title blocks

              ASME Y14.35 covers revisions

              • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                Robert Weller

                I personally wouldn't have a problem with "revised by", for the most part it's semantic. The fact it goes straight to "approved by" suggests a lack of engineering rigour which I'd strongly oppose.

                • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                  Jamil Snead

                  My company has boxes for "Drawn By" and "Approved". The "Drawn By" field always stays with the original drafters name and the "Approved" box is updated with whoever approved the most recent change. They do not use rev tables.

                    • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                      Rick McDonald

                      That is the same Concept my current company does it except we have "Designer" and "Drafter" instead of "Drawn By" and "Approved".

                      The "Designer" never changes (and also the "Design Date") but the "Drafter" and "Draft Date" will change with ANY change.

                       

                      I did come from a company that ran on Mil - Spec Standards and they were much more controlled and had added sign off levels.

                      When it comes to revisions, something that was not said (but would be in the Ansi Standards, the only time a rev letter (or any rev. marking format) is changed is when it changes one of the "3 F's" (Form, Fit, Function). Changing spelling errors, cosmetic updates, clarification ... that do not change one the the "3 F's" should not change the rev. level.

                       

                      Even if you can't get a revision "Block" added, I suggest you still maintain Rev. level notations somewhere in the title block and you can make notes on another page, the EPDM properties (or similar), the Notes Area under the Annotations section of the drawing... someplace.

                      Give enough information so it's easy to figure out what was done but with minimum text.

                    • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                      Christopher Estelow

                      Not really helpful to the discussion but for every drawing I make I have a little hidden feature in my title block so I know I made the original drawing. 

                       

                      Capture.GIF

                       

                      Chris

                      • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                        Dwayne Peyton

                        This is what I setup in our Title Block.

                         

                          • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                            Christopher Estelow

                            That looks like it has all the bases covered.

                             

                            Chris

                            • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                              Joe Cervantes

                              I had suggested we go back to a previous version of our title block which was similar, revised by, revision appr, eng appr, but these decisions are being driven by the East coast department and managers. Finally just gave in during meeting and said "OK, just let me know what you guys want to do. I don't care anymore just fill me in on the procedure and I'll go along with it..."  CLM... perhaps... but don't ask for suggestions and then just blow it off as the other million times.

                              • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                Joe Cervantes

                                Unfortunately the department in charge of these changes does not seek input from their West Coast counterparts... As most big conglomerates the IT department and other depts try to keep everything clamped down in the name of security and consistency.

                                  • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                    Dwayne Peyton

                                    That's funny. Most IT departments don't want anything to do with SWx....as it's too complicated for them. HAHA!

                                     

                                    It's got to be tough when the people making the rules don't know anything about what is really needed. You can't stop a Jackass from being a jackass - you just hit them with a bigger board.

                                      • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                        Joe Cervantes

                                        Our IT department dreads dealing with us.  The create scripts that run automatically in Solidworks that took down a few engineers because they tried pointing default templates across the country. 5 days later it was resolved but not to everyone's liking... we liked it. The new computer upgrades were canceled because our current machines were faster than the replacements and by the time they agreed to our requests the machines were no longer available through Dell. Still waiting for new machines but not in a rush.

                                          • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                            Glenn Schroeder

                                            If we're going to sidetrack this Discussion into IT stories, and since you started it you certainly have that right, I'll share one.  The last time I needed a new work computer I put together some specs for a desktop machine that I thought was pretty close to what I needed and sent it to our IT department for review.  The guy they assigned the request to evidently didn't read my e-mail, or look at the attachment, and sent me back the specs for a generic laptop.  I think I showed remarkable restraint when I replied to him, but it got transferred to someone else anyway.  Thankfully the second guy was more helpful.

                                             

                                            Other than that one episode I have to say I've been pretty satisfied with them.

                                    • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                      John Stoltzfus

                                      Tough situation you're in Joe, here is what I would do;

                                       

                                      Add a few more custom properties stuck within the part file, these custom properties wouldn't be on the drawings, just a place for you to add in your own notes and rev notes etc...

                                      • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                        Wendy Mark

                                        I've lived both ways.  At my previous company, they had a block for the original information which never changed, and a separate rev block with current information.  However, all that was manually entered.  When I joined my current company, they had automated filling in the Title Block about 10 years before, but could only get the current information from the ECO system, so that's what got entered in the block.  Now that we are in SW, it's basically the same, except that we have the original creator/approver on the data card; but that information doesn't actually show on the drawing anywhere (don't get me started...sigh).  We do save (and always have saved) revision history, so with a bit of research you can find the original person, but a lot of our drawing started life in pencil, and have been through 3 CAD system changes; so the original information is buried way back in microfiche scans of the history files.

                                         

                                        We do frequently experience guys from the floor coming to ask a question, who say "but your name is on it", to which we reply "I touched it last, but I didn't design it", then we go searching to find out who to send them to.  But, as you say, IT doesn't care so here we are, doing research.

                                          • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                            Joe Cervantes

                                            Don't get me wrong, the easiest way to find out who started the solid at least is go to the feature properties and it clears that up right quick. A drawing not so easy, but I do keep track on my own of what I have drawn and what I have revised. Life is just so much easier when the people in charge where once engineers with design and drafting experience. But when the documentation department is dictating how, what and why for the engineering department something is amiss... steps off soap box....

                                              • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                                Matthew Menard

                                                When I first started three years ago at the company I currently work for, we had a title block that was fairly typical of what many of the people here seem to have.  This included a drawn by & approved by field that was static as well as a revision block that had who executed the revision and who approved the rev.  Over the time I've been here, we have increased the number of approvals needed for our drawings and subsequently updated the title block to reflect this.  One of the main changes was removing the drawn by and approved by fields and just having all of the approvals in the rev block.  All new drawings start out at either rev A for pilot projects or 1 for production projects.  When a part is transferred to production, it goes from an alpha to numeric rev.  We maintain all old revs in our engineering job folders so we only have the two most current revs displayed on the drawing.  Revs beyond the previous two are still in the rev block but are hidden.  So far this has given the best of both worlds by only showing the two most current revs, but still having all of the previous approvals available at the click of a button.  Here's a screen shot of one of our parts that have transitioned from pilot to production (although this one was originally created in a title block that didn't call out production status, that's why the first two are n/a). 

                                                 

                                                So far, it seems to be working pretty well, but I'd enjoy hearing any input from others as to what disadvantages I might have missed when we made our system.

                                                  • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                                    Robert Weller

                                                    Wow that revision table looks like a nightmare. Thanks so much for the idea of hiding revision rows, it's never occurred to me. I've just e-mailed the department declaring that the new standard practice. We also use alpha to numeric when moving from prototype to standard product.

                                                     

                                                    Here's what our revisions look like. The biggest pain was that we can't have "unpopulated rows" in the revision table, so the table rows and column are actually drawn in the border, with the revision table is sized so that it overlaps the lines already drawn.

                                                     

                                                      • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                                        Matthew Menard

                                                        Glad the hide function worked well for you.  It's the only thing that keeps our rev block under control (it takes up the whole top border of our A size title block).

                                                         

                                                        Yeah, I was pretty aghast at it when my boss first pitched it to me, but it's not too bad now that we've been using it for at least six months.  The only major drawback is that we have no real digital documentation system so the paper copy of a production print needs to get 5 signatures.  Because of the increase in required signatures, there has been an increase in the number of lost ECO forms and new drawing request forms that are lost.  It took me over two years to convince people here that since we're not using AutoCAD any more, saving our Solidworks drawings to DWG was not just inefficient, but an all around terrible idea across the board.  Now, instead of saving from Solidworks to DWG so that purchasing could then save to PDF, we just go directly from Solidworks to PDF.  In light of this, I'm not holding my breath to get any kind of PDM system to make handling our sign offs easier and will continue recreating lost paperwork for at least another year.  Or more, who knows?  This place runs purely on inertia at this point.

                                                        • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                                          Joe Cervantes

                                                          Love the title block sign-off area. That is what I was proposing we go to and the EPDM guy said that was the easiest way for him to go with. Less work for him and the workflow didn't have to be massively changed since all he had to do is create two new attributes.  Even after that the dotted-line boss came back a week later and said no.

                                                           

                                                          I like the concept to hide revision table rows so on older drawings the rev table doesn't take it over. I'll have to suggest that idea and have it shot down.

                                                  • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                                    Joe Cervantes

                                                    Common sense reigns! Just an update... I casually mentioned the changes to my boss... got the emails going.  Other dept head was on vacation but my boss got a prompt response back.  They backed off and will be revisiting the whole mess... perhaps they might consult with the West Coast later on but not likely.  What stopped them you may ask?  Trying to make changes to our company's Engineering Standard (which calls out ASME y14.100 as the main standard) with out the required committee review. Oops! 

                                                    • Re: General Drafting Standards & Practices
                                                      Christian Chu

                                                      I've worked with both ISO and ANSI standards and both include very much same info except the note "Third" and "First" Agnle projection as well as Leading/trailing zeroes