AnsweredAssumed Answered

The Most complex yet simple problem with animating path mate motor

Question asked by William Larson on Apr 1, 2014
Latest reply on Mar 12, 2015 by Jared Conway

Like • Show 0 Likes0
Comment • 27

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on the SolidWorks board. I have some issues with moving several identical parts along a path at reoccuring intervals. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

By adding constraints to the path mate, I get it to work when I drag the items but not when I animate them with a path mate motor, it either crashes or ends the simulation early. Although sometimes it does work, this is what I find even stranger.

I am using Motion Analysis as I believe it is only possible to add such a path mate motor in that type of study and I am not using gravity nor collision. Just mates that ought to work since the parts move fine by dragging. So I do not understand why it is stopping the simulation or crashing solidworks.

Can anyone please help me? I am desperate I've tried creating simple designs and I still get the same problem.

PS: Parts also are jumping to different locations when I edit something (a random object, light, or other things) and I do not have AutoKey turned on (which shouldn't be an option in Motion Analysis anyway, right?). I can send you the file by e-mail using Sprend if you want to have a look! I really need to figure out what is wrong. It is driving me nuts, been in this loop for 3 days now nearly 15 hours a day!

PS2: I am also 99% sure that I do not have any mates that should be affecting these parts in such a way, they should be constrained and behave like when I drag them.

Thank you in advance!!!!

Attachments

error.png544.9 KB

No one else has this question

Outcomes

27 Replies

1 2FirstPrevious

John Sutherland Apr 1, 2014 4:04 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
I have the impression that you want kinematics (animation) rather than dynamics (measurement of forces).

The simpler tool may be more appropriate and the SW Step by Step Self Study Guide to Motion Manager will probably answer most of your questions. Get it from www.solidworks.com.
Like • Show 1 Like1
Actions
Jared Conway Apr 1, 2014 5:26 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
cross post: https://forum.solidworks.com/thread/80048?tstart=0

"Can anyone please help me? I am desperate I've tried creating simple designs and I still get the same problem."
> this likely means your approach is not good. post your simplified one and get that working before you move onto a more complicated version.

do you need motion analysis or just animation?
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 2, 2014 2:45 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Hi Jared, yes actually,I do Simply just want to make an animation (I am not trying to calculate anything).

Essentially the path mates and motors are the same as in the complex version, the only differences with the simple design is that the track is created from just 1 extrusion and part to move is just a 10x10x10 cube and there are no other mates or parts in the assembly. I still can't get it to work. I will post a video example in a little bit.

However, a path mate motor can only be used in motion analysis (I Don't understand why it can't be done in Animation) *Correct me if I am wrong, But I can't seem to turn on that kind of motor in Animation. It can be created but not animated, at least for me)

Although I have stumbled upon Animation Wizard which lets you import motion from motion analysis, But the problem is that the parts are jumping from place to place when I try to move a completely different part not directly related to those Wagons. (as shown in the picture shown above) I am not sure what is causing them to jump, they seem to jump at random events. sometimes they do sometimes they don't. I believe it might be something to do with mates, so I recreated the assembly with new mates and made a subassembly for the non-moving parts.

To answer your question from the cross post, I have 52 redundancies.

The parts are mated by:
- PathMate (vertex to loop) [free / free / free]
- PathMate (vertex to loop) [free / free / free]
- Parrallel to (top face of moving part to top face of track)
I tried Just using a center path mate with restrained Roll and restrained Pitch/Yaw which is the *Cleanest* way of doing it, and works beautifully when dragging the part but the second I animate it with a motor, Solidworks Crashes And has to quit application.

So I have stopped using constraints and instead use 2 free PathMates along with a parrel mate.

I got it to work Once before (*see vid below) but now everytime I try to rebuild the assembly (from scratch, new file, new mates, etc) it won't complete the cycle and things like this happen Although the parts, the mates, etc are the same as before, it just is a bit cleaner (by clean I mean there are less parts *more subassemblies for non-moving parts*, mates are done in a logical order, etc) I even tried replacing the 2 lines and 2 arcs of the path with a continuous spline, with a dozen points I still get the same problem.

I lowered all kind of graphical appearances to lower settings and still nothing..
Also tried increasing to precise contact, maximum accuracy in the motion study options, it had no impact.

It seems as if though the simpler I make the assembly, the less it is willing to work. I have also been experiencing a slow down in performance when animating even the simple parts, with no other assemblies open. (stuttering, the fps is not as it is supposed to be, though it works smoothly with the old complex assembly. VERY frustrating and confusing.)

PS: I run on a 64-bit 3.66 GHz quad core, 16GB RAM, nvidia quadro 4000 graphics
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ John Sutherland on Apr 2, 2014 1:48 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Thank you John, I have tried searching across all kinds of different websites for an explanation to this problem but I can't seem to find the answer. I even went as far as paying a subscription on Lynda.com to see a few tutorial videos. I've nearly watched every tutorial video on youtube now. I found a few helpful tips and answers but not for my problem.
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 2, 2014 2:34 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
I attatched videos in previous reply but they don't seem to be visible so here are the links:

Succesful old assembly but when I tried to move other parts in the assembly the wagons jumped all over the place
- Part 1: Prepass (used for exact placement) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y74W9NCbvT0
- Part 2: Repeated motion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smRxDjjmxv8
- Part 1 and 2 in solidworks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo4QVyMapgA
So basically it's as if I regressed, since I can't even recreate that animation anymore.

The new errors I am gettting
http://youtu.be/dHvX3fgtS8Y

Trying with simple parts
(only managed to make one work *funkar study*)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd23EVOMFlE
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
Jared Conway @ William Larson on Apr 2, 2014 3:31 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
lets separate animation and motion

if you're not going to spend time to build an assembly for motion, don't keep trying to use it, you're going to get frustrated because the solver will be upset with the level of detail you're trying to using without preparing the model for it.

let's go back to the beginning of the most simplest application that you're looking to animate and get that working and then you can start applying that to your larger assembly.

for example it sounds like you want to put something on a track. how many contact points does it need and is the track a closed loop or a single path. post the model here if you're still stuck.
Like • Show 1 Like1
Actions
John Sutherland @ William Larson on Apr 2, 2014 8:54 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
You don't need motors. An initial velocity will do the job when you do not
need a continuous application of energy to overcome friction or gravity.

If your part flips, then the mates are ambiguous; there are two solutions for
the equation being solved.

"Contact" is usually mutually exclusive with "Path mate".

Contact is employed for the classic ball rolling in a channel. It requires
Motion Analysis.

Consider Symmetry mate instead of Path mate.

Dragging in the assembly view does not assure motion in the animation view.

You won't see an explanation of your problem on web sites.

You are a textbook case of a confused person not recognising correct advice when
it is provided.

Having said that, I suggest that in general, "Free advice is worth what it
costs." People who work hard to create good training material want payment for
their effort.

Your forum peers can help you with specific points, but you should not expect
them to teach you all they have learned from the books they have bought.
Like • Show 2 Likes2
Actions
William Larson @ John Sutherland on Apr 3, 2014 1:33 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Thanks John, I just want to clear out first that I am not expecting anyone's help but I hope to find someone who is willing to. I am dearly grateful for anyone's reply.

One of the purposes of a forum is for people to learn, teach, help those in need of advice and solutions, for others to use when they encounter a similar problem. Not just to give out their opinions. And I do believe that moving a part along a Sloth ought to be a quite common task.

That being said, I am not sure where the correct advice is if there is no correct solution.

My knowledge in math, physics, logic and programming (outside of Solidworks) is sufficient to determine that this task should work with my mates and it would be illogical in this case to use any other form of mate other than a path mate. But I am open to suggestions.

Unfortunetly a symmetry mate would not function properly since a symmetry mate allows only single planes to be used, if it could use two planes to coincide simulating a cross-mirror effect with two opposing parts, then yes. (or just use a single center point) But solidworks does not allow that with symmetry mate as far as I know. If that worked then it would increase the chances for the parts to stay at exact opposite distances from each other. The only other use I can think of with symmetry mate would be to create a rotating plane of zero thickness in the center of the path, which still sounds though too complex for just moving parts around a sloth. Not to mention that it would still require a path mate.

The part just needs a determined direction, distance and time to travel, which appears to only be provided by a path mate motor. Friction is not taken into account unless you tell Solidworks to take friction or gravity into account in Solidworks, right?

I am posting a simplified version on this post, feel free to try and animate the parts to do the same operation as in the succesful video I posted. I will pay a reasonable sum (not over 100 dollars, sorry I'm not that rich ) by wire transfer to the person who finds the solution.

I do not know how to add a file here but shoot me an e-mail will.nils.larson@gmail.com and I will send you the file.
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 3, 2014 12:47 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
John, excuse my incertainity but I am not sure whether people are overrating motion or if you might be right. All I know is that my parts could very well be designed for motion. I do not know how to post the model here, but you can shoot me an e-mail at will.nils.larson@gmail.com and I will send it to you.
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 3, 2014 1:28 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Got it!

So here is a sample, all of them are mated differently, all possible mates which make them go around the track. There are many more but these are the most logic ones that I have got to work sometimes.
Attachments
- TestRun.zip240.2 KB
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ John Sutherland on Apr 3, 2014 1:29 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Here it is.
Attachments
- TestRun.zip240.2 KB
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
Jared Conway @ William Larson on Apr 3, 2014 5:11 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
so much to read here. what model is this that you have posted? the most simple version (like a block on a track) that you cannot control the way you want with animation?
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 3, 2014 5:19 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Yes it is the most simple version I created, all I am trying to do is make these parts go around the track, by a distance each time

as I did in this video -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smRxDjjmxv8

I cannot recreate that animation anymore I dont know why. And I can't use the succesful one either because it glitches when I move other parts.
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
Jared Conway @ William Larson on Apr 3, 2014 7:40 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
1. when i opened your assembly, all the files are loaded lightweight, have you tried resolving them?
2. the first recommendation when you're running into problems and you had previous success is to take a step back. i suppressed all the blocks except for 1 and animated the path mate, it worked great. i believe if you build from there, you will find what is causing your problems.

the other thing to note is even at that point you have 4 redundancies. the more redunancies you have, the harder it is for the motion solver to solve your problem.

i'm not a master of animation, but i'm sure i've seen others animate something along a path with animator instead of motion. have you checked the customerportal kb?
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 3, 2014 8:10 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
1. Mine are not lightweight, but you must have the setting to load them lightweight turned on, however accordign to SW, lightweight components increase performance. http://help.solidworks.com/2012/English/SolidWorks/sldworks/Lightweight_Components.htm

Maybe I should not resolve them?

2. I did step back and checked on successful file a dozen times, I don't understand why it works only in that assembly,

3. I am not sure what to do about the redundancies, is it even possible to get rid of them?

4. Everyone I see who use similar procedures use Motion, I even tried creating a belt now with no success.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmOVf0EKuI

Check the comments sections, someone had the same issue.

Could you upload your version ?

Thanks!
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
Jared Conway @ William Larson on Apr 3, 2014 8:36 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
all that i did was open your model
set lightweight to resolved
enabled motion
created a motor for the path mate
ran the analysis

you're saying when you do this with the file that you sent, you still have trouble?

have you spoken to your reseller about this?
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 3, 2014 8:38 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Yes I have SolidWorks Support Team I pay 4000 dollars a year for that support, they are all CSWE certified and non of them can get it to work either. They have 3 guys working on it for a week now! They even contacted SolidWorks themselves! Still waiting on a reply...
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
Jared Conway @ Jared Conway on Apr 3, 2014 8:38 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
havey ou looked through the forum?

i found this

http://gupta9665.wordpress.com/2010/07/01/motion-along-path/

which is what i was thinking would work for this case without having to use motion
Like • Show 1 Like1
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 3, 2014 8:41 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Let me have a look, it looks interesting, I will run a few tries and as soon as I have the answer I will post it here. Thanks Jared! Greatly appreciated!
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 4, 2014 12:07 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Hey Jared, Thank you so much for that link! Very well written blog. I Haven't tried using Motion yet, but using Animation it works beautifully. This is very helpful as it gives it a starting point, I don't know if it would work with motion, but it might also help the solver understand the starting point. and keep track of its track, but I will see more on that later. I will keep going with animation for now.

A million thanks! God bless you!

How much do you charge for one on one training? I could use some help some times. (I live in Sweden so we would have to do the lessons by skype)
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
Jared Conway @ William Larson on Apr 4, 2014 12:50 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Use animator for animating

Use motion for engineering kinematic motion analysis.

Don't try to use motion as an animation tool, it will result in frustration because it is meant to be a simulation tool.
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
William Larson @ Jared Conway on Apr 4, 2014 11:50 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Unfortunately after 12 hours of trying, the exact same issue with Animation arises, I tried all kinds of different mates, it worked fine in the beginning, when I had no other parts in the assembly, the parts still flip around and I can't find a way how to stop them frop flipping.

Methods tried in animation: (same as in motion)
- 1 path mate with all three constraints, the part doesnt move around the curve
- 2 path mates on the same path, 1 parrallel mate with 2 Up faces, works in the beginning sometimes, eventually some of them flip or change direction at random instances
- 2 path mates on two different paths, overdefines the sketch
I basically even tried changing every single settings in solidworks.

I think I tried a few others but like I said, it's not working...

The solution would be to constrain it to one side of the path, but every possibility seems to be overdefining the sketch

Sometimes you get lucky and it works a few times in a row, but if you recalculate a few times, it eventually flips out of control. it's not normal.
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
Jim Boland @ William Larson on Apr 4, 2014 1:40 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Have you tried reading the Step-by-Step book "Creating Animations Using SolidWorks" that SolidWorks publishes and is available at store.solidworks.com, or from Rob Rodriguez at axiscadsolutions.com, or Amazon? It is a whole lot cheaper than spending 12 hours going nowhere.

Path Mates have limitations when used in animations, see page 203. Also anytime you drive something on a closed path, the "100/360 Rule" (page 198) comes into play and you have to understand what happens at the zero point of the path. Then there are mate type limitations based on the type of study you are using. There are ways to use a part on multiple paths trough suppresson/unsupression of mates and changes of configurations. The important point is that NONE of the concepts in animations are difficult, actually they are all really quite easy. The problem is that you have to learn them and they are not all self evedent and easy to figure out on your own. Once you know the concepts, problem solving is more about understanding the engineering of the problem.

One free asset to remember is the SolidWorks World Proceedings. Search for topics on Animations. I did two presentations at SW World 2012, one on motion drivers, "Move It - Move It - Move It", that covers some of the problems you are having and the other one is called "Smoke and Mirrors" which deals with different methods to create more challenging animations.
Like • Show 2 Likes2
Actions
William Larson @ Jim Boland on Apr 4, 2014 11:51 PM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
Hi Jim, Thank you. Best answer so far!

I haven't actually but I will give it a shot.

Using seemingly evident methods on a closed path, whether it is in animation or motion without a full understanding of the mathematical 'paradoxes' embeded in Solidworks appears to be a real challenge.

It is peculiar how it can work sometimes.

I have managed to make it work by using larger displacement numbers than that of the path, to make it keep going around and around.

But I doubt the zero point is the only issue as the issue sometimes arises within 0 < x < 360 (before any full revolution)

I am now trying to use a open path (kind of like a spiral, growing larger by 0.01 mm after each revolution, we'll see if it works this time, but the solver might still decide to flip it to the other side.

We'll see, but thank you for the tip, it would be much too time consuming to animate 20 parts with a start stop function every 3 seconds supressing and unsupressing mates on different paths. But if need be, I must

Are your presentations available on video or power point?

Best Regards,

William Larson
Like • Show 0 Likes0
Actions
Jim Boland @ William Larson on Apr 5, 2014 2:32 AM
Mark Correct
Correct Answer
The presentations are in SolidWorks World 2012 and they are video files so you can see everything that was shown on the screen with me explaining what I'm doing. Look under the "Design Communication" category and "Animation" sub-category. For some reason, if you try searching for my name, it will not yield results even though I'm listed correctly once you get to the presentations themselves.
Like • Show 2 Likes2
Actions

Incoming Links

Re: Simulation End?!

The Most complex yet simple problem with animating path mate motor

Attachments

Outcomes

Attachments

Attachments

Related Content

Recommended Content

Incoming Links