51 Replies Latest reply on Dec 15, 2014 11:35 AM by Pete Yodis

    DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?

    Neil Larsen

      I think its time DS fronted up to their customers to explain why a number of very good long serving employees have left SW.

      What is wrong behind the scenes with what DS are doing that is causing these valuable people to go?

      Forget the corporate BS this situation obviously isnt normal. The way DS are directing SW is having the effect of jeopardizing all that has been built up under the SW banner and that is SW. Why are you killing this company and apparently content to persist with it?

      At this rate all we will be left with by the end of next year is a ghost of the great company SW was.

      This is not good enough. How about some heads roll at DS rather than have excellent SW employees walk. We have lost a CEO, a founder, managers, and coders to name a few.  Its time to call this cloud folly out for what it is, ruinous incompetence. Clearly something isnt working. The cloud solution has been a very long time in the making. Why is this sucking up subscription dollars and resources for no result when Autodesk can start from behind and finish already? You need to explain to us all why you are screwing up and continue to screw up. The result is ruinous for DS, ruinous for the businesses and VARs that are part of the SW fold/umbrella and ruinous for many thousands of customers who are committed to and depend on the software and find themselves in the midst of difficult financial times that promise to get worse..

      I dont think DS actually have any idea what they are doing despite the propaganda and bravado and the tragedy of that is that everyone else is left holding the can. So I want to know Bernard Charles what the hell you are going to do to fix it and if you cant when you are going to move on...

        • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
          Richard Wagenaar

          I still have hope for a nice direct modeller in Solidworks, that is really needed at

          this time to get  new customers and improve productivity for machinedesign.

           

          Autodesk seems to be more cad centric lately instead of the  Dassault "3d experience" thing.

           

          Althoug I do not share all your points of view it seems that investers share your point of

          view you at this moment:

           

          http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=ADSK+Interactive#symbol=adsk;range=6m;compare=dasty;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

            • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
              Neil Larsen

              Thanks for the chart Richard. Its kind of hard to know whats real in the financial world these days. I believe the stock market is in a FED induced bubble of 20-25 perhaps 30% accumulated since 2009 so if we allow for that Autodesk had a steady-solid year although it appears relatively overvalued whereas DS is actually in negative territory... The launch of Dassault Sytemes Solidworks Mechanical Conceptual had better be very impressive, better than the name suggests anyway. If it isnt and its followed by a crash/correction sometime next year in the global situation as quite a few are predicting thats not a very good position for DS to be in.

            • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
              Kevin De Smet

              What confuses me most, is that Belmont also seems to be going for some sort of cloud approach.

                • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                  Richard Wagenaar

                  You have to see this cloud in the context of "3D experience"

                   

                  The biggest recent multi hundred million dollar acquisition of Dassault is this one.

                   

                  http://www.3ds.com/press-releases/single/dassault-systemes-to-acquire-realtime-technology-ag-rtt/

                   

                  PTC and Autodesk last multi hundred million dollar acquisitions were CAD/CAM centric.

                   

                  http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=PTC+Interactive#symbol=ptc;range=6m;compare=dasty;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

                   

                  It seems investors don't get the "3d experience" but only time will tell.

                   

                  PTC and Autodesk have invested in CAD centric solutions the last years.

                   

                  PTC has has acquired Cocreate Soliddesigner which is a very good direct

                  modeller and changed the name in Creo elements.

                   

                  Autodesk has developed a direct modeller Fusion and acquired T-splines

                  and have shown to be able to integrate technologies extremely fast.

                   

                  Autodesk is investing in CAD/CAM solution,  they also bougth HSMworks and

                  marketleader Delcam in the last months. They deliver value that is visable

                  to a CAD/CAM user unlike selling the "3D experience" like Dassault.

                   

                  I think bigger companies selling consumer products will like this "3D experience" more

                  than smaller companies using mainstream Solidworks etc. 

                   

                  I think a lot of small design and manufacturing companies would rather like CAD/CAM

                  centric developments  instead of "3D experience".

                   

                  I think having a cloud is nothing special and does have a lot of security risks.

                  Dassault seems to need a lot of resources for their cloud with all their different

                  modules including Solidworks.

                   

                  Compared to 5-10 years ago I see that all the Cad centric evolutions are now

                  in other modelers instead of Solidworks and this is a shame, I would have liked to

                  see this otherwise and even expected this with Dassault.

                   

                  Sometimes I wonder if Dassault's acquistion of Solidworks was a good thing at all

                  for Solidworks. If founders like Mike Payne would have introduced direct modeling

                  in Solidworks instead of developing Spaceclaim that would make a big difference.

                   

                  Even Catia is replaced by big old customers in favour of Siemens NX.

                  That will cause a lot of suppliers to choose Siemens NX or Solid Edge instead

                  of Solidworks or Catia in Europe.

                  http://www.deelip.com/?p=4878

                   

                   

                  We have been using Solidworks since SW1995.

                  We "experience" that regressions take longer to fix than 15 years ago and

                  especially the time it takes before regressions are taken serious.

                    • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                      Neil Larsen

                      What the '3d experience' is exactly is something of a mystery. I think its intended to be the something related to engineering but honestly I'm not sure. The French have kind of a unique style and manner that defies ready interpretation.

                      Just for holiday amusement I'll post a link here to an article I came across while surfing -http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.nz/2013/12/france-seeks-another-tax-on-facebook.html

                      Perhaps the French government are anticipating a substantial surge in Facebook use when Solidworks Mechanical Conceptual comes on line? Perhaps I should buy DS shares then? They do seem 'cheap' at the moment. DS might be able to gather a little 'culture tax' as well as collect the rent....ah the master plan is all falling into place isnt it?

                      Anyway enjoy your holidays

                        • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                          Richard Wagenaar

                          I was not completely right about PTC being Cad centric.

                           

                          PTC just did a  hundred million dollar acquisition

                          which has few to do with CAD.

                           

                          http://www.thingworx.com/

                           

                          I wonder if marketshare in 3D CAD is difficult to expand.

                          Could it be that Cad companies investing in non Cad centric companies

                          have problems winning market share in CAD and are trying to find other ways?

                          Could it be that they just loose market share to younger innovative

                          startups like Spaceclaim etc?

                           

                          My guess is that 3D cad companies investing in non Cad related business

                          may have less money or less priority for improving their 3D cad.

                           

                          I would rather see Solidworks fixing software problems and innovate much

                          faster  instead of selling "3D experience".

                            • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                              Neil Larsen

                              Thing Worx looks interesting. At least they are offering to enhance the real world rather than offer mere 3d experiences. (DS are only into social engineering experiences - like compulsory lobotomy and sterilization). Potentially it could be useful, however I even wonder about this 'internet of things'...

                              Do I really need my toaster connected to the internet and talking through the wall to the washing machine? (what are they actually saying about me anyway?) Do I have to have all my appliances monitored 24/7 by the manufacturer?

                              Does my cordless drill need a software update on the basis of how many horizontal holes I drill rather than vertical? Seems over the top and potentially invasive. Will the NSA enhance its profiling knowing when I usually have breakfast and what bread I prefer?

                              How do I know the manufacturer will use the data to improve products and not to refine planned obsolescence or advise me I need to arrange service when I dont? (assuming they just dont despatch a van anyway - and why dont they keep my security lock code while they are at it?)

                              What if my invalid mothers oxygen machine was working fine yesterday and some new feature upgrade overnight turned it into a brick when the flash was interrupted because the dryer accidentally ran during its own upgrade and caused a spike? Who do I sue? Do I have time for that?? The only thing that would be worse would be for my recently divorced wife to log on to my house...cutting ties is so old fashioned, darling. (just an example ladies not sayin' anythin')

                              How much connectivity is enough? I think the Thing Worx video openly identified the key to this in that it offers the manufacturer the ability to take over the maintenance. ie. soon it will be impossible to do the maintenance yourself or choose any provider other than the manufaturer and you will be still more dependant and open to exploitation. This isnt about service its about you covertly becoming a tethered slave to their empire.

                              So many people are apathetic about this rent seeking scam transpiring. CAD software you dont own, hardware you dont own, maintenance you dont own, data you dont own, privacy you dont own...worse than Orwellian IMO.

                                • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                  Richard Wagenaar

                                  If I would choose another CAD system I would choose

                                  one that  concentrates on Cad/Cam productivity and

                                  nothing else. If a company can't grow enough by

                                  selling CAD software and needs other business that

                                  could mean that their CAD software problaby is not

                                  good enough to generate growth.

                                   

                                  http://www.deskeng.com/virtual_desktop/?p=1119

                                   

                                  Fusion 360 has cloud and direct modeling. It can

                                  be used as an extension to Autodesk Inventor.

                                  I am testing fusion 360 and althoug it is a product

                                  under development this CAD evolution is something you

                                  would have expected earlier from Solidworks supported by

                                  a rich Dassault company.

                                  But just the opposite happens, after almost 4 years

                                  of announcements there is still nothing.

                                  Technical marketing director Joe Dunne of Solidworks left

                                  and is now at Belmont/Onshape.

                                   

                                  http://www.linkedin.com/pub/joe-dunne/0/659/527

                                   

                                  And here is another one.

                                   

                                  http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-corcoran/35/664/281?trk=pub-pbmap

                                   

                                  and there are many more.

                                   

                                   

                                  Could it be that Dassault misses Catia$ because of

                                  Solidworks$ and slows down the development of Solidworks?

                                  Why has Autodesk it up and running while they are still

                                  talking about it at Dassault 4 years after the announcement?

                                  Solidworks has always been more innovative than Autodesk

                                  so how can it be that Autodesk sets the trend now?

                                   

                                   

                                  We have been doing updates for our machines through

                                  internet for more than 10 years. We also log data in

                                  case there are problems and save thousands of kms

                                  traveling.

                                  You don't need a company like ThingWorx,  this technology

                                  is supplied by the makers of PLC's and industrial controlls

                                  for more than 40 years. The idea that you need to buy

                                  this technology from a CAD reseller doesn't make sense

                                  at all to me. It is integraded in the PLC of the device or

                                  controll chip and these companies offer libraries that are

                                  easy to use in your PLC program.

                                   

                                  It is just another way of how a Cad supplier can be confused

                                  and doing investments that don't benefit the CAD user.

                                   

                                  They created a "virtual market"  just like Dassault with "3D experience"

                                  that problaby doesn't exist.

                                  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ptc-acquires-leading-internet-things-210500652.html

                                   

                                   

                                  I would not like the idea of having more

                                  acces than necessairy. Our customer decides when we

                                  can login.

                                   

                                  With this acces in "wrong" hands you can potentially do

                                  very dangerous things like causing an Iran nuclear

                                  power plant to fail.

                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

                                   

                                   

                                  PTC could also hire more people to improve their user

                                  interface, that would make more sense for their CAD users

                                  and new CAD customers. 

                                    • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                      Neil Larsen

                                      Well said. These large corporations are abusing their customers to perpetuate their own stale existence. Old trees in the forest need to die out to allow new growth except in this bubble of suspended animation we are mired in now. This is corrupt like banks that are too big to fail. Its corporate welfare seized by corporations. There is no genuine innovation around the product itself only scheming up and dressing up more ways to capture related business. Basically its monopolistic practice and ought to be rejected by any right thinking customer. This is what you get when you are only driven by the immediate bottom line and the business has ceased to serve its customers and only serves itself. CEO's are paid too much to provide continuous growth regardless of the actual practical purpose the business was founded for. Acquisitions and glossy appearances become the business.

                                      IMO Onshape only have potential provided they can get back to basics and stay focused on that. That means kicking the venture capitalists to the kerb and working on through the falling branches. There is a global storm brewing...

                            • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                              Neil Larsen

                              Hi Kevin,

                              I think in regard of Belmont you need to separate the ambitions of the venture capitalists who are fixated on the dollar value of rent-a-cad-in-the-cloud from the desire of the old SW team to reincarnate/resuscitate their baby.

                              Honestly I dont think the old team were up with the play from the perspective of real world users when they decided to form up Belmont with a cloud focus.. I keep challenging them about it when the opportunity arises in hopes of forcing some re-examination but in all probability they are capitive to their backers. With a more appropriate mission and one better defined to their now stranded previous customers I think they could have delivered but as it is I dont see it happening. To me it seems like a road to no-where, or waiting for a bus for a road we dont want to go down.

                              • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                Pete Yodis

                                Kevin,

                                 

                                     What is confusing about Belmont/Onshape going with the cloud approach?

                                  • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                    Adrian Velazquez

                                    I think people are getting obsessed with the whole "On the Cloud" thing!  They don't realize that they are technically already on it! anything that is connected to the Internet could be considered as been part of the cloud.

                                     

                                    There is this assumption that data is more secured under your companie's IT team vs a company that specializes on that sort of service.

                                      • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                        Pete Yodis

                                        I agree Adrian.  Just trying to get people to put in words what it is about the cloud.  I think alot of it is FUD, but could be wrong.  Software as a service for CAD will be very disruptive, I think.  Someome somewhere will do it, and for a price that is better than the current MCAD products.  There will be big economic advantage to use it, becuase it is by its nature much more efficient than all the hoops we jump through now with using and supporting the current local install versions.

                                          • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                            Joe Kuzich

                                            I don't think the price will be better.  Maybe at first as lure you in gimmick but overall, I doubt it.  Why would a company go through the trouble of designing it to work a different way just make less money.  It will have to increase profits to justify the development.  Maybe through increased up front cost or by forcing a renewal service.  I hate the idea that I have to rent software.  Sure it keeps you up to date but often the annual changes are very minor and if something happens that I can't afford to renew my software I hate that I am then just dead in the water.  If I own it I can still make due with the older version until I am able to change my situation.  Even if they don't do that approach they maintain complete control of the software you rely on, there is no safety net.  You have to rely on them maintaining a policy that you can use the older software and why would they continue that...

                                             

                                            I admit I don't fully understand how all the cloud stuff works but happens if you lose you online capabilities for any reason?  Does your company just get the day(s) off?  Not that it happens often where I am but it does happen once and a while.

                                              • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                Pete Yodis

                                                Joe,

                                                 

                                                     Your are spot on about making less money and that is why the big players won't do CAD as a Software as a service (on the cloud) for less money, because that would be cutting their noses off to spite their faces.  I think this is why SWMC is priced the way it is.  It can't threaten SolidWorks and it certainly can't threaten Catia.

                                                 

                                                   It will take an outsider with nothing to lose and everything to gain to do it right and price it below the current MCAD products.  People and companies will eventually move to CAD as a Saas, because it will make financial sense to do it.  It would allow them to put off the shackles of buying hardware, installing sofware, configuring, etc... and just focus on using the software to design anywhere they are.  I don't think you will see a reseller network with a product on the clould done right.  That would just add to the cost of the product.  I think some of the big boys are too fat at the moment.

                                              • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                Adrian Velazquez

                                                Yes it would be disruptive for some or most companies,  I think this change in to SaaS, or "the Cloud" will take a long time. It is as big of a change in the CAD industry as it is been moving from 2D to 3D, and that's been going on for 15-20 years! There is still companies that are designing mechanical components and machinery in 2D.Hell I even know of companies that don't even use CAD tools and they design and manufacture products!

                                                 

                                                This change to the cloud will take years if not decades, it might not even happen, I just believe people are overthinking it.

                                          • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                            Jerry Steiger

                                            Kelvin,

                                             

                                            My company blocked the second link. They thought it involved "adult" content. Pretty good indication of the skill level of the folks in corporate IT. Those would probably be the same folks who decided that the cloud was or was not safer than our own networks.

                                             

                                            Jerry S.

                                            • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                              Adrian Velazquez

                                              Hi Kevin, I don't think half of those companies operate as Cloud Solution Providers. Most of them develop their own hosted architecture, in the case of the attacks they usually target Credit Card info not intelectual content.

                                                • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                  Kelvin Lamport

                                                  You are missing the point. The problem is not hackers attacking intellectual content, it's that those companies were hacked at all. They are supposed to be the best at data security, and if they can't guarantee security, what makes you think that Dassault can?

                                                   

                                                  As for the comment in your previous post ("I just believe people are overthinking it"), I believe the problem is that the people creating "the cloud" aren't thinking enough.

                                                    • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                      Adrian Velazquez

                                                      I see, and my point is that is nearly impossible to have a fully secure environment, most hacks into this advance systems are as simple as obtaining the uses's Username and Password via Trackware on their browsers or personal devices.

                                                       

                                                      The reason I say people are over thinking it is because of this issues (security) this whole Cloud thing may fail, or take on a different hybrid direction, where data is held locally, but computing resources are on the cloud.

                                                       

                                                      There are new solutions/alternatives coming out every month so, right now I'm just laying back and enjoying and absorbing as much as I can, because the day may come where me or the company I work for needs to decide which route to take.

                                                        • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                          John Sutherland

                                                          The key issue that I see is my Intellectual Property being held to ransom by a cloud service provider or a hacker.

                                                           

                                                          I am willing to wager $10 that data files created on SW Cloud will not be openable on SW Terrestrial, so there will be no insurance.

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          I will point out that Microsoft stopped innovating a decade ago but they are still in business.

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          I still have the punched paper tapes storing a Fortran program that I developed in the early seventies and sent from an ASR33 dumb terminal over a phone line (no internet then) to someone else's computer.

                                                           

                                                          Needless to say, as soon as I could afford a PC I bought one and stopped paying for "cloud" time.

                                                            • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                              Adrian Velazquez

                                                              I'm not for nor against "The CAD Cloud", yet. Seems that is becoming a grayless discussion and one has to be either in favor or against it. I think this mindset from users/customers will push CAD Companies en the wrong direction. Many other industries, (Music, Media Design, Software...) where intellectual property is at play are already benefitting from this environment.

                                                               

                                                              As and end-user the "Cloud" may seem a very intrusive or disruptive, but for most business (our employers) the option of a more structured and flexible solution like SaaS is very appealing. When you have to manage 50+ users, and you have to pay IT and Software admins just to maintain a estable/productive environment, the idea of having/using a more Out-of-the-box tool definitely gets attention.

                                                               

                                                              I have not been a fan the Structure of being forced to have a Reseller/Subscription, I see this "Cloud" thing as more comprehensive alternative to the scenario we're already in.

                                                                • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                  Pete Yodis

                                                                  Adrian,

                                                                   

                                                                           I hear you on managing users, software installs, hardware purchases, updates, etc....  I think this is where a Saas product will kill the local install products total cost wise, especially if you consider PDM across multiple locations.  I think the draw for a lower cost solution will proove to be too much, for the hurdles we currently make up in our minds as to why "the cloud" is a bad idea.  Who says all of the data has to exist only in "the cloud".  It could easily be copied local, if need be.  I look at company like lagoa and think that is where CAD is headed next.  Simple for the users.  I also don't see a need for a reseller network with the Saas products, it would just add too much to the cost.  I could see flexible renting options being attractive to smaller companies, that don't necessarily need CAD every day or month of the year.  There is a lot that could be done here.  Dassault's SolidWorks Mechanical Conceptual looks way too pricey for what it does.  I think their idea is that you will purchase more modules to get all the jobs done that you need.  Very Dassault like... but in the end I think this thing is a lead balloon.

                                                                • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                  Pete Yodis

                                                                  John,

                                                                   

                                                                       A question for you.  Where do you keep your money?  Where does your company do its banking?  Is it all under the matress?

                                                                   

                                                                  Why is money trusted to the cloud, but data kept with either Google, Microsoft, or Amazon not trusted?

                                                                   

                                                                  I'm not trying to be a pest, I am just trying to see why one thing is trusted, and the other is not.  If a fear of data offsite could be overcome, then imgaine the efficiencies that could be realized.

                                                                   

                                                                  I suspect that folks that are too fearful of data being offsite will be missing the efficiency gains and cost reductions of when more computing moves offsite.

                                                                    • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                      Mark Biasotti

                                                                      Hi Pete,

                                                                       

                                                                      The obvious answer is that money can be replaced (an insured) but IP and data in some cases can not.

                                                                       

                                                                      To spite the risks and concerns, I believe many engineers will use the cloud because of the efficiencies while many others will not.

                                                                      Regards

                                                                       

                                                                      Mark

                                                                        • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                          Pete Yodis

                                                                          Mark,

                                                                           

                                                                               Thanks for the response.  With major companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft... how likely would it be that your data is lost in all their redundant locations?  I find that circumstance, although possible, not very likely.  If security is the issue... I imagine most small companies are entirely too easy to get into and take the data compared to someone like Microsoft, Google, or Amazon.

                                                                           

                                                                             I agree with you about there being a division among engineers and companies.  I think the ones that want to stick with everything done within thier walls will eventually be running an operation that is much less efficient than ones that embrace, wisely, the changes that are coming.  Their costs will be lower because they will be able to get more done with less cost.

                                                                          • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                            Pete Yodis

                                                                            Mark,

                                                                             

                                                                                 As Adrian mentioned below...  Data can be copied as many times as you like, but money should not be.  I think we're down to a security issue at this point.  So, who is more secure... your local company or the company where the data is stored?

                                                                              • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                John Sutherland

                                                                                Here is another consideration.

                                                                                 

                                                                                I hear the complaints of IT department getting in the way of SW users.

                                                                                 

                                                                                I suggest that large and medium organisations need IT departments to ensure that data from sales, manufacturing, finance and HR departments can be integrated to meet statutory reporting requirements.  If you work for one of those organisations then you are stuck with IT oversight.

                                                                                 

                                                                                I suggest that micro companies are the ones most likely to take up the simplistic advantages of Saas.

                                                                                 

                                                                                So where does SWC make most of it's profit?

                                                                            • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                              Joe Kuzich

                                                                              Yeah the banks are covered.  If they are robbed they have insurance or Fed backing that gives you as a customer a guarantee that you money is protected that goes beyond that banks security. 

                                                                               

                                                                              Perhaps they will be able to provide some type of guarantee like that.  Although it would be much harder with intellectual property than with an easily replaceable commodity.  They may be able to place some type of financial equivalent.  It would VERY tough to establish that dollar amount though.   

                                                                                • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                  Adrian Velazquez

                                                                                  I don't think it be too difficult for CLOUD-CAD providers to allow a sort of local backup for companies, this would only be accessible in the case of severe failure on the SaaS.

                                                                                    • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                      Pete Yodis

                                                                                      I think that would be very easy.  Some people might prefer the files to exist local all the time, and the streaming app to work on those local files.  I think that might be in-efficient.  It seems more efficient if the files and app were running remotely on systems.  The data could always be copied locally, if need be like you mentioned.  Might be interesting to decide what format it would be stored in locally.... something neutral like STEP.  I only say that because the app may not be able to run locally, but a CAD netrual copy of the data could exist locally.  Maybe have a backup copy of Space Claim if that is the case.

                                                                                  • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                    Neil Larsen

                                                                                    Pete,

                                                                                    I replied to this same question you posted about 'where I put my money' at SolidSmack.

                                                                                    I've given up posting there because I cant follow the conversation...

                                                                                    I thought to repeat it here so we get a balanced discussion and not the one sided watered down sophist stuff we typically get.

                                                                                    Perhaps thats your purpose here?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I'd like to point out too we are getting well off topic to the original post which was about SW employees leaving but...

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I've pulled a lot of my money out of the system and parked it in physical gold and silver presently. People who think they have retirement savings are probably wrong. I definitely don't trust bankers to look after my money and neither do I trust others to look after my data.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Banks are not safe places. They tend to blow up on regular cycles just out of living memory.

                                                                                    Although they ought to be, that isnt any reason to conclude your data is also safe somewhere else.

                                                                                    Because your local doctor is a good guy doesnt mean the local mechanic is as well.

                                                                                    Wouldnt a large business like Amazon be more likely to go rogue with your data than a smaller one?

                                                                                    The NSA is a large govt organisation that looks after data, everyones data, that makes it all good doesnt it?

                                                                                    Its big so its good. Big is by nature also efficient, right?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Why do I need to send my data somewhere else so someone can look after it for me?

                                                                                    Up until now my car has been safe in my garage perhaps I should let a company with a hardened bunker take over and pay them $xxx in perpetuity...

                                                                                    Why cant DS deliver their direct editing software that lives on my company's hardware?

                                                                                    SolidEdge can do this. The cloud isnt a vital ingredient.

                                                                                    As a small business I dont need these collaboration tools. I dont need to pay 2-3-4x what I used to for what I do need which is CAD.

                                                                                      • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                        Adrian Velazquez

                                                                                        Cloud CAD is not about direct editing, is more about Collaboration/PDM, Performance and Stability...

                                                                                          • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                            Neil Larsen

                                                                                            Well I've said I dont need collaboration tools, no one has shown me that it performs better, and being a new software and service it has no track record of stability...

                                                                                              • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                Adrian Velazquez

                                                                                                Not trying to be rude, but that would be equivalent of me ranting about the Flow Simulation package, which is something I haven't use, I don't need, will probably not need/use in the future.

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                If Cloud-CAD is not a tool for your enviroment why do you have such strong opinion about it?

                                                                                                  • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                    Neil Larsen

                                                                                                    Well no it wouldnt.

                                                                                                    We are talking about something you and I do use, CAD, say tripling in price by the time you add MC+IC+ drawings +rendering to get the equivalent of what we have presently, apparently for the only benefit of being 'social', and you not being able to retain your data or have interoperability with SW.

                                                                                                    Data, if we listen to some people, is something almost dangerous and a nuisance to you if you have it on your premises.

                                                                                                    Now for some reason you are happy with that deal and the perverse justification for it, and the new fangled direct editing capability doesnt figure in your considerations.

                                                                                                    Wouldnt you be better to use something like GrabCAD in that case? Perhaps you feel you are being more professional if you pay more?

                                                                                                    I have a strong opinion about these matters because DS clearly would like to migrate as many people to the cloud as possible and all by avoiding fronting up to their customers with the facts. I do not like the way DS conduct themselves. I dont like what they are doing with SW by default.

                                                                                                      • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                        Adrian Velazquez

                                                                                                        Most of your statements are just assumptions. The Product and it's modules are still not on the market and final price is not made public yet. That being said, the cost of having a CAD tool in most companies is more than just the licensing and/or maintenance. Paying an Admin, IT Support (Installs, Upgrades Troubleshooting, etc.), High Performing Workstations. PDM, ERP Integration.....

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        At the end of the day we do pay "2-3-4x" times the price of your SW License. And no I'm not happy with that, that is why I see an opportunity whenever new solutions are available.

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        Like I said at an early comment, it's simply to early in the process to be making these conclusions. For both Data Security and Cost of the "Service"

                                                                                                          • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                            Neil Larsen

                                                                                                            Adrian,

                                                                                                            OK some questions for you but you dont have to answer -

                                                                                                            I dont know if SWMC will be available in your area or not come April but if it was would you pay the announced price of $2988 for a years access on the basis of what you have seen?

                                                                                                            Will you access SWMC from your existing SW workstation or get another box that is just sufficient for running a browser?

                                                                                                            How many IT staff would you anticipate being made redundant at your place of work if your company went entirely to the cloud?

                                                                                                            Would you be in a position to abandon the SW file format for new Catia lite one? that is will all of your business partners follow suit?

                                                                                                            Do you think after 3-4 years of knowing this is coming that DS have done a good job of consulting and informing their customers what is happening?

                                                                                                            Would you still buy SWMC and commit to placing your data in the cloud without knowing the price or functionality of other modules or when they would arrive?

                                                                                                              • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                Pete Yodis

                                                                                                                Neil,

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                     I am putting words in Adrian's mouth, but he and I are very much open to CAD on the cloud or CAD as a Saas, ...whatever you want to label it.  We think the current crop of tools take too much resources to manage in a medium sized company.  The up front purchase, the subscription costs, the installs, upgrades, hardware, troubleshooting, PDM, etc... falls on our shoulders, so we see the real costs.  It's too much.  Dassault is running in the other direction and adding to that pile of costs with something that really disappoints.  I think Adrian would agree here.  We would not pay the $2,988... thats ridiculous to add on top of SolidWorks costs.

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                  A worthwhile company would have a freemium model so that you can try it out.  CAD on the cloud would be accepted if the costs were $50-$175 per month per user, and slightly more if it offered FEA and PDM/PLM out of the box.  I would expect it to be able to take in native SolidWorks files and be able to do direct editing on them, so that feature history would not need to be converted to make smaller edits.  I think the rub would be how to export information out of current PDM systems and into the new system.  We would have the options to store file backups locally... but in a neutral format, like STEP.  Drawing backups could be kept local in PDF format.  I would maybe keep a local copy of something like Spaceclaim in case the world ended and we still came to work.  That would allow for editing of the backup STEP files.

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                All kidding aside, no one has done it right yet... and Dassault is clearly going to loose the market.  They are lost and trying to protect Catia.  This is why lots of folks have already left SolidWorks.  I think they saw the writing on the wall.

                                                                                                                 

                                                                                                                As an aside, I am writing this as I wait for My PC to churn through another FEA solution that could have been done in a fraction of the time on a cloud based system that has access to 1,000's of cores and near limitless RAM.

                                                                                                                  • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                    Bill Stadler

                                                                                                                    No doubt, all additional cost not to mention the time it takes away from focusing on innovation.

                                                                                                                    • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                      Brian McEwen

                                                                                                                      Pete, check out this AutoDesk site. You are being quoted, lol.

                                                                                                                      Fusion 360 is different than the rest (Discuss) - Autodesk Community

                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                      I actually tried out the free trial of Sim 360, a related FEA in the cloud package.  I didn't do a lot with it, but I liked it. Nice to have some multi-body FEA without a big commitment.  It solved on the cloud while I could continue working.  Unfortunately after the trial Sim 360 went away in the short term. They have other higher end FEA options right now, but I think we will see something like Sim 360 come back.

                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                      Going back to the original post. I don't think it is all doom and gloom for Dassault.  It has some problems, but SolidWorks is a good CAD package, and they are putting a lot of resources into developing it further.  Maybe the cloud thing has not been their priority. I expect both AutoDesk and Dassault to continue to grow and figure out the market.

                                                                                                                        • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                          Pete Yodis

                                                                                                                          Sorry Brian.  I actually just read this now.  I haven't been hanging around these parts lately.... been somewhere much more interesting and forward thinking on these matters.  That's funny about them quoting me.  Autodesk is going to be a player in the cloud or CAD SAAS model.  I think the Fusion product currently is OK, but seems buggy and crashy.  It also is an 80 MB local install.  But, I think they are aggressive on the pricing side.  Which is where CAD is going.  The cloud approach will not continue the high prices we pay today.

                                                                                                                      • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                        Adrian Velazquez

                                                                                                                        Neil, It be foolish to try answering any of those questions at this stage. MC is a product I've only seen a few minutes worth of video.

                                                                                                                          • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                            Neil Larsen

                                                                                                                            Ok let me make an attempt for you.. I dont mind being foolish. I realise not everyone feels comfortable thinking for themselves.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            The price of one module is the only significant detail they have belatedly come up with in 3-4 years of the community asking about their cloud venture. The self serving silence has not gone unnoticed. It certainly hasnt done a lot for customer relations never mind the seemingly asinine 3d experience pitch creating a negative reception ahead of the launch. This whole thing remains badly handled.

                                                                                                                            I dont think there is a mood of forgiveness or tolerance out here. If there is its pretty thin.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            The price though is a very strange thing to put out with at this time, almost as damaging to prospects as the killing of SW comment.

                                                                                                                            I would say next to no one finds the pricing acceptable regardless of what the capability offered is or if they think the cloud has merits.

                                                                                                                            I would suggest that most of the SW customer base are in fact small businesses say 1-5 people who dont need what is being provided and cant/wont pay what is being asked. If they do have a need for collaboration they can do it elsewhere with a far better deal.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            The other details we know about Catia lite are also off-putting in that they reveal something that is still fundamentally flawed in its conception, and it shouldnt be, because the community have long identified to DS what is likely to work for them, and what is delivered, finally, isnt that. I cant see how DS hope to gain any adoption of this in the circumstances. It presumes their customers are very stupid and that DS software is unquestionably wonderful and at any price.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            I doubt anyone will actually save any money by adopting Catia lite because they have other software they wont downgrade their workstations for, and will probably still need the same IT people -if they have any- to look after it and provide a help desk.

                                                                                                                            In my case I have 3 workstations to look after but I do so myself for quite a lot less than if I had to pay someone else to do it. I also built these workstations for considerably less, and I might add, enjoyed doing it.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            As I keep pointing out we are in troubled economic times. Signing up for hefty annual fees and on top of regular SW subs in the transition is not a wise thing to do. This cloud business model they have doesnt fit with the reality of where the world is at today.

                                                                                                                            The world has changed direction from maybe 6-7 years ago when the cloud was the next big thing and growth was still open ended. As I anticipated a few years ago this is the wrong product at the wrong time.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            Useful services like render farms have been around for a while but dont require you to have your app and data in the cloud.

                                                                                                                            The cloud isnt something special of itself we must have. I dont see that CAD users are of the mentality to run out and buy their tools on impulse like the latest model smartphone. They most likely have a collection of software they have acquired over time and learned to combine with SW to good effect, so moving to Catia lite tends to make those redundant as well, although its hard to tell presently what DS will provide. If they dont provide something I need how do I work with my old software with an odd xml file I wonder.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            I've said myself a simulation or analysis service would be a useful extension of SW but I probably still wouldnt be happy to have my files out there and knowing as we do the internet is now infested with spying and counter spying.

                                                                                                                            It depends what type of work you do, however I know there SW users who are prohibited from having their data exposed in any way, for instance because they are involved in defense contracts. None of their concerns are addressed, indeed it seems DS will never address them because they dont see that they need to, or it would be better not to.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            Its hard to see that DS have any basic understanding of their customers or their practical needs and they also dont appear to respect them or boundaries of ownership. Either that or they are simply blinded by the prospect of the rent that could be obtained.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            Its true we have only seen a few minutes of canned video however I think in many users mind Catia lite is already a failure.

                                                                                                                              • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                                Neil Larsen

                                                                                                                                Let me finish my contributions here (all of this stuff has been generally examined over 3-4 years anyway and it gets tiresome to air it again) with a note that since October the DS share price has fallen about 20% and apparently SW subs are now at 'about' 80% levels. Analysts are quite correctly asking more probing questions of DS financial reporting, CEO statements and business plans than they have in the recent past. As I mentioned a while ago if you were to make a decent play against DS succeeding with their cloud then you would probably make a good return on it.  IMO there are serious matters to be faced up to at DS, and soon. Dont bet on them doing the right thing or quickly though...

                                                                                                                                  • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                                    David Paulson

                                                                                                                                    Neil,

                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                    I have always respected the perspective in your posts.  But for many of us the sky is not falling in......yet.  The reality is that DS has incompatible business entities.  I had hoped that they would be able to create a translator between the SW kernal and the Catia kernal.  This does not seem to have worked.  I had hopes that this could be done on "cloud computers" with capabilities beyond MS Windows.....but, who knows what the platform that MC will actually run on.  Probably Windows, but that creates it's own issues too. 

                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                    3D CAD software is getting long in the tooth.  I have clients that think Google Sketch Up is the cats meow.  I think it is free.  Probably a good alternative to MC??  I now use Open Office instead of MS Office.  Open Office if free and MS Office doesn't even offer an upgrade to the newest version.  And I am looking into Open Foam for CFD as it too is free and will support GPU's with maybe up to 100 cores.  In reality we have been using 3D CAD for almost 20 years now.  I do not think there will be any revolutionary software innovations in this market segment, except the revolution will be that it is free. 

                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                    If I really thought direct editing would change my life, I could buy MC for $250 month forever or I could just buy a seat of SE, and the payback of the SE would be about 20 months.  I think MC should be priced at about $1.00 per hour.  If you actually used it all month, it would be about $250 / month.  If MC is as great as described, you may never go back to SW.   But then, if you like direct editing, SE looks pretty good.

                                                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                    We do appreciate the torch that you bear........

                                                                                                                                      • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                                        Neil Larsen

                                                                                                                                        SW can be salvaged and returned to sensible service with better thinking. Unfortunately I am not sure many people understand the implications of DS decisions for their business...or in fact care. No amount of explanation or timely warning will make a difference to those people. They are the passive and ambivalent 99%.

                                                                                                                                        Obviously I could do more a lot more to challenge or unseat DS management and I know I will get blacklisted for it but vitally when push comes to shove I wont get any support from the user community. Whatever comment I make around the traps essentially comes down to me pushing back against the machine because I object to it and to save myself, although I dont see why others should suffer by DS either and that includes SW employees. If I can act for good I will do it while I can.

                                                                                                                                        I do have an escape plan though so its not absolutely vital to win out here. SW users will basically get what they deserve and ultimately learn to live with it if it isnt to their liking.

                                                                                                                                        • Re: DS if your cloud is so hot why are people leaving?
                                                                                                                                          Richard Wagenaar

                                                                                                                                          A full Solid Edge with integrated direct modeling and no

                                                                                                                                          translation problems with support costs 220$ a month, 

                                                                                                                                          that is less than Solidworks MC alone.

                                                                                                                                          But in the end it is not about a couple of hundreds a month,

                                                                                                                                          it is about how efficient the system works.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          I really wonder what this Dassault "age of experience" 

                                                                                                                                          and "3D experience" is  all about and if they really care

                                                                                                                                          about "experience" of Solidworks users.

                                                                                                                                          I mean, of course we have "experiences" and they can

                                                                                                                                          give the most beautifull names for it but in the end we are

                                                                                                                                          only experiencing problems because of bugs and

                                                                                                                                          unnecessairy mouseclicks/movements and modeling inefficiencies.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          We just hope that serious bugs in Solidworks get fixed in a normal

                                                                                                                                          timespan instead of years to buy time before we make a final decision

                                                                                                                                          as we think there is a lot more that is going to change in the near future.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          Of course we would rather stay with Solidworks but that might

                                                                                                                                          not be the most efficient solution in the long term. This MC module

                                                                                                                                          will always be a "separate experience" as I understand while other

                                                                                                                                          Cad systems have it integrated.