48 Replies Latest reply on Jan 21, 2015 9:35 AM by Elmar Klammer

    How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?

    Matthew Lorono

      Do you use Weld Symbols on SolidWorks drawings (or even in the modelling environment)?  How do you use weld symbols?  Which symbols are you using?  What are you not able to do with Weld Symbol functionality in SolidWorks?  What behaviors of weld symbol annotations are bugging you?

       

      7-24-2013 1-57-46 PM.png

        • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
          Glenn Schroeder

          Hello Matthew,

           

          I'll give this a bump, and a list of things that come to mind.  I use weld symbols on about 1/3 of my drawings.  Here is a list of my issues:

           

          1.  I don't like the re-sizing of the tails that was done, I believe in SW2013, so that they're smaller.  I think they look out of proportion to the rest of the symbol.  The one in your screenshot looks about right to me.  Is it from an earlier edition?

           

          2.  When I click on the Weld Symbol button, I should only get weld symbols, not Modifying Symbols, or whatever I used last for a completely different type of annotation.  The reverse is also true.  When I'm placing a note and click on the Add Symbol button in the Text Format section of the PropertyManager, I shouldn't get weld symbols and then have to scroll down to find Modifying Symbols.

           

          3.  There is one thing that has always bugged me about weld symbols.  When I activate the command the weld symbol Properties box pops up.  I make my selections.  Now I have to move the dialog box out of the way so I can place the symbols, then go back to it to click OK to close out the function.  This seems counter-intuitive.  To me it would make more sense to make my selections in the Properties box, click on the OK button, the box goes away, I place my weld symbols, then close out the command with one of the usual options.  Even after using SW for four years, I still catch myself occasionally making my selections in the Properties box and clicking OK to proceed, since this is the way every other dialog box in the known world operates.  Clicking OK on the weld symbol Properties shouldn't close the entire command.

           

          If I think of more I will post again.

            • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
              Matthew Lorono

              Glenn,

               

              Thank you for the feedback. 

               

              1)  There is an SPR for this.  If you get a chance, I invite you to vote for it.

               

              2)  Do you have occations where you might need a symbol in an unusual location?

               

              3)  Do you think that your suggested workflow might work if a Pin were added to the dialog in order to keep the dialog up if you had multiple symbols to insert?

                • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                  Glenn Schroeder

                  2.  I'm not sure what you mean about needing a symbol in an unusual location.  Maybe I wasn't clear.  When I'm in the weld symbol dialog box and click on the "Weld Symbol..." button, if I had recently used Modifying Symbols in a Notation, then that's what pops up.  I'm not likely to need a centerline or plus/minus symbol there.  In my opinion, when I'm placing a weld symbol, then the last type of weld symbols used should show up here, which in my case would be "ANSI Weld Symbols" so I can choose between Fillet, Bevel, etc.  See below:

                   

                  3.  Maybe, but using it for multiple symbols it doesn't work too well now.  I've always just closed out the command and started it again if I have different types of weld symbols.  I just tried it again to check.  I opened the Weld Symbol function, made my choices in the dialog box, and placed two symbols.  I then went back to the dialog box, made some changes, and placed two more symbols.  The first weld symbol I had placed changed to reflect the changes, so instead of 2 of each type, as it should have been, I had 1 and 3.  The first one I placed shouldn't have changed.

                   

                  I suppose a Pin would be OK, but I would want it un-pinned by default.

                   

                  weld symbol.png

              • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                Elmar Klammer

                Hello,

                 

                The weld symbol of ANSI are too long and too big. I think the size of the tail is really a matter of taste and not function. The issue of the symbol beeing much longer then necessary is however a show stopper. If i specify a fillet weld size without weld length then there should be no space between the symbol and the tail. And the horizonatal line after the symbol shoulnt stick out like a sore thumb. it should terminat right after the weld symbol. The ISO standard weld symbol behaves like that, just make it also for the ANSI standard. And if you really need to accomodate the "standard enthusiast" that can't sleep unless there symbols are to spec, then give me the option to resize the symbol just like the leader text. It would also be good to attach multi-leader lines to sketch blocks. To keep my symbols down in size, i create sketch blocks and use the regular leader text. the limitation of a single leader text is a big set back. It would be great to have the abiltiy of multi-leaders for inserted blocks.

                Weld symbols should be able to rotate. I know they are used predominantely in horizonatal position, but drawing paper space is sparse sometimes and rotating the symbol would be handy.

                Also, if i deselect the symbol then any text entered in the size or length should be grayed out. Currently i have to delete all text first and then select the blank symbol or the text will show up on its own. Doesnt make sense.

                The option to have multiple weld symbols in order to show multi-stage welds is completely missing; If the sequence of operations needs to be specified, a multiple-reference-line welding symbol may be used. Two or more reference lines may be connected to the same arrow, with the reference line closest to the arrow specifying the first operation, followed by the operations specified by the sequence of reference lines reading upward or downward from the arrow (Figure 3). It should be noted that operations other than welding, such as nondestructive examinations, can be specified by a multiple-reference-line symbol.(see standard for documenting weld sequence)

                stitch length calculation would be great, selecting an multiple edges (drawing object lines) and getting an update what the stitch will look like would be great.

                Showing cross sections of welds would also be awsome especiall if the lines don't connect. since most welds have a gap it would be great to have  multi line tool that hatches the weld section. the current tool fails many times especially in section views.

                If the weld symbol altogether could be resized just like a block that would also be something you could look into.

                 

                thanks for asking.

                 

                elmar

                  • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                    Tony Dum

                    Elmar,

                    Our company does both commercial and government jobs and if the required standards aren't met exactly, auditors can at the very least cause you a lot of reworks for some of the pettiest violations of the standards.  Perhaps you can see why some of us who are what you call "standard enthusiasts" require that our symbols be to spec, we have no room for preferences or adjustments to something that is "a matter of taste".  SolidWorks provides a set of symbols said to be ANSI and the default when using that set of symbols should meet the ANSI spec.  I have no problem with them allowing modifications to the standard for those who have the option, but if they, SolidWorks, made changes to their program for issues such as these based on what is a matter of taste or personal preferences they would still not make everyone happy. 

                     

                    Below is the base symbol from AWS A2.4:2007:

                     

                    AWS A2.4 BASE SYMBOL.png

                    Agreed, there are some of the more comples symbols that are not available, but the structure of the base symbols is correct, the symbol is attached to the center of the 1.00 inch line not at the end.

                      • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                        Elmar Klammer

                        Tony,

                         

                        We do a lot of work for the oil and gas and trust me the red tape doesn't get any worse. I am sure your AWS A2.1:2007 is accurate but in decades of engineering work i have never come accross and audit where the length of the symbol was questioned. The order of the symbols and the location of information provided  is curcial as it governs how the symbol is read. If this horizontal line is 1 inch or 1/2 inch does in no way compromise the accuracy of the information (if the weld symbol is indeed used properly and I have seen plenty of "artistic" weld annotations).

                        A "standard enthusiast" will critize the "out-of-standard" symbol length only because they don't know the difference between relevant, crucial rules and guidlines that are meant to be used as a starting point. The symbol length in fact gets in the way of properly annotations of shop drawings since it clutters the drawing and complicates reading it. And because there are people out there that have the right to hold a red pencil but the experience and technical know how of a new born, that's why we have a discussion over such a trivial thing. And in order to avoid such inefficient talk, i asked for the option to override the holy symbol standandard AWS A2.4 that strictly describes the weld symbol length so I can focus on what is really important.

                        • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                          John Fair

                          Just did a google search for "AWS A2.4:2007" and found several PDFs of the standard.  None of them had these dimensions.  Do you have a PDF with these dimensions I could look at?

                      • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                        David Knecht

                        Matthew,

                         

                        Thanks for the opportunity for us to express our concerns with weld symbols.

                         

                        I posted the question about the ANSI tail sizes being smaller in 2013 and that is my biggest problem with the weld symbols.  It was very annoying to make changes to a pre-2013 drawing and not be able to match the existing symbols because the new ones had smaller tails.  The "copy/paste" work-around actually doesn't work once a document is saved so I've been selecting JIS weld symboIs within the weld symbol dialogue box which makes the tail larger.  I take it there has been an SPR to address this.

                         

                        I know there have been discussions regarding the size of the symbols, and there seems to be a variety of opinions on what they should look like.  After reading Elmar's comments, I feel that as a professional 3-D modeling software Solidworks should make sure when they offer ANSI symbols they conform to ANSI specs.  When they offer ISO symbols they should conform to ISO specs, etc...  Then there should be a "Custom" option where the user can adjust certain characteristics of the symbol such as tail size, tail length, symbol size, etc.. This would be for those users who want a different look than they are able to get with any of the standard symbols.

                         

                        I agree with Glenn's suggestion no. 3.  I often make the mistake of selecting all of the options for a symbol, and forgetting to place the symbol on the drawing before selecting OK.  Then I have to go through everything again and reconstruct the symbol.

                         

                        Thanks,

                        David

                        • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                          Justin Strempke

                          I'll agree with Glenn's #3.  I generally place models/dims, then do all welds, and it's a time-consuming pain 1) having a properties box covering the workspace you need to be able to place the symbols (in the sidebar would be nice, or reconfigure the window to be smaller, and 2) having to close out of the window, then re-open to place different symbols.  Maybe add an 'Apply' button, so you can place a symbol, hit 'Apply', then create a new symbol and place it, etc, and hit 'OK' to close out the welding symbol box when finished.  I would sort of like to be able to click 'Add weld, then click the location with multi-jog defaulted, and double-click to set the symbol/leader and THEN open the properties window.  As above, then 'Apply' may be 'Add another', at which time the symbol window closes, you place the next leader, and the properties box re-opens to change its properties.

                          • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                            Matthew Lorono

                            Let us focus on other specifics too.  For example, does anyone use the "Inside" settings in the Weld Dialog for the root to appear inside of the weld symbol?  Is the behavior of this setting meeting expectations?

                            • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                              Alessandro Tornincasa

                              Hi Matthew,

                              Are you focusing on the weld symbol behaviour or are you interested also in getting some feedback about the cosmetic weld bead feature, and its interaction with drawing annotations and weld table ?

                               

                              Alex

                              • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                                Matthew Lorono

                                Beside UI workflow issues, are their any functions within the Symbol system that doesn't work for you needs?  I've noted a couple from this conversation, but I'm interested in more examples that users might be experiencing where the Weld Symbol doesn't display things properly or support certain types of legit elements.

                                • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                                  Dean Dickemore

                                  Many good comments and suggestions on this thread.  I would like to add simply that it is difficult to create multi-reference lines as well as place text in the backing bar.

                                  • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                                    Greg Johnson

                                    I have a couple individuals at my company who are involved in the AWS and have provided me with a new standard that is being adopted. I sent this document to one of the SolidWorks Product Definition people that I met at SolidWorks World last year. There are many things that SolidWorks could implement from the new standard.

                                    • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                                      Butch Lively

                                      I would just like to see the weld symbol scale proportionately with the Text Size.  We use ASME as a baseline, but all of our annotation geometry is scaled .5. In the example below you can see the results. The tail and field flag scale, but not the length or all around.

                                      2014-07-07_9-48-59.png

                                      • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                                        Butch Lively

                                        I am updating our basic reference block we include on every drawing with welded parts (see Fig 1).  That block as it is currently defined and SolidWorks 2013 (see Fig 2) use one symbol for both Plug and Slot.  According to the latest AWS A2.4 that I have (2007) there are two seperate symbols (see Fig 3).  Presumably that changed after the 1976 version we (and presumably SolidWorks) were referencing.  Does that sound correct? If I am correct, would SolidWorks be interested in addressing this?

                                         

                                        Fig 1 - Reference Welding Table

                                        Fig1.png

                                         

                                        Fig 2 - Plug or Slot symbol from SolidWorks 2013

                                        Fig2.png

                                         

                                        Fig 3 - Plug and Slot from AWS A2.4 2007

                                        Fig3.png

                                        • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                                          Tyler Kemp

                                          https://forum.solidworks.com/message/411485#411485

                                           

                                          This issue couldnt be resolved soon enough in my opinion. We rely on these symbols for every joint we fabricate, and the fact that they have made it this far without being fixed to work correctly w/o having to use a time consuming workaround is shocking to me.  Also very discouraging knowing I'm going to have to apply this workaround to the gobs of standard drawing documents as well as current drawings that contain these weld symbols. I was excited to finally upgrade to the latest and greatest only to find out instead of saving me time and looking accurate, it's going to cost me much more. Also not looking forward to explaining this to all the other draftsmen....

                                           

                                          We use 3/32 root gaps and 30-37.5 deg bevel angles, so with center justification the symbol looks terrible.

                                           

                                          Sorry to moan, just aggravating...

                                          • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                                            Andy Haffemann

                                            When I use the flare bevel weld symbol with any contour it intersects my weld size. Seen below:

                                            • Re: How are Weld Symbols (ASME/ANSI) working for you?
                                              Elmar Klammer

                                              Hello Mathew,

                                               

                                              Not sure if it was mentioned but the weld symbol size should also be integrated with unit conversion ability. Currently its text only. If I switch doc units from inches to metric I have to update all weld symbols. The inch <"> symbol has to be added manually. A unit setting with precision capability should be added to all weld size annotations. Sample: If I designate 1/4" fillet weld and have to change drawing dimension to metric then I would like to see 6 mm to be shown in the weld symbol (not 6.35). Also give me the option to include the unit symbol <"> or mm just like with dimensions. The symbol size should also be tied in with the font size specified for the weld annotations. And make the basic weld symbol so it can be resized by dragging. That should satisfy most users I would believe.

                                               

                                              And the function to added jog points for the arrow should be looked at not only for weld symbols but leader text in general including bom balloons.

                                              Currently: 1) RMC -> SEL ADD JOG POINT 2) RESELECT ADDED POINT AND DRAG ( 3 clicks!!)   

                                              Why not let me ALT+LMC the leader line and automatically add the jog point and let me move it at the same time (1 click only)