35 Replies Latest reply on Oct 11, 2012 2:42 PM by 1-56THY4

    Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

    Erik Shafer

      I haven't heard anything but some rhetoric from some of the Autodesk resellers on the HSM forum about what the future is for HSMWorks and Solidworks...  I am a Solidworks user who unfortuneatly chose HSMWorks 3 axis milling about 1.5 years ago.  I believe that Autodesk is going to phase out its integration into the Solidworks platform.

       

      Is there any reaction from Solidworks about this?  I know they dropped HSM's gold partner status, but I would like to see what Solidworks has to say about this.

       

      There has to be some contractual agreement between Solidworks and its gold partners to have some type of fiduciary responsibility to their customer base?  How could they be allowed to develop a software package in the s/w environment for years, then be purchased by s/w's biggest competitor?  Someone must have found a loop hole, or maybe it states that they have to keep the integration active for x-amount of time??

       

      I think answers are needed.  How long will HSMWorks be compatible with s/w?  End of 2013?  No more bug fixes, or development?  I'd like to hear s/w's side of the story as well - how did they react, and what is being done on their end to either maintain the relationship or end it?

       

      This all makes me very apprehensive about buying another integrated CAM system....as convenient as it is, any one of those partners could do the same thing it seems....would be nice to know the actual rules established by s/w to their gold partners to see if there is any protection for the customer in the end.

        • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
          Rohit Mitra

          HSMWorks is the ony CAM software that is fully integrated into SolidWorks. Considering that Autodesk is touting the full integration with SolidWorks, as one of the main benefits on there site, there's pretty much no way there some how going to immedietly cut off that compatibility. You'll probably be able to expect at least several more years of integration, but my guess is that the integration will never go away. If you knew what goes into coding the integration, it makes very little business sense to get rid of this integration.

            • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
              Joe Kuzich

              Maybe AutoDesk will just buy SW.  I know that will never happen.  Or at least thats what was said about REVIT and probably HSMWorks...

              • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                Anna Wood

                Erik,

                 

                Unfortunatly this can happen with any partner product for any CAD vendor.  It is one of the major risks and considerations one has to make when deciding to use a partner product for any CAD software you may own.  There is always a chance they can be bought out, go out of business or change business focus within the company and decide not to support their software anymore.

                 

                Back in the day, before Cimlogic Toolbox was bought out by SolidWorks, it was a critical add-in for our work with our main CAD system at the time, AutoCAD 2000i.  SolidWorks bought out Cimlogic and that day we could no longer get reg codes for Cimlogic to use with AutoCAD.  We were not happy as our purchase became brickware.

                 

                This scenario and others like it before at our company make us very wary to become dependent on software add-ins by third parties.  We still use them, but fully well expect to get burned at some point in the future with any particular add-in we may have.

                 

                This scenario has been happening in the software world for years.

                 

                FWIW,

                 

                Anna

                 

                P.S.  HMSWorks is not the only CAM software package fully integrated with SolidWorks.  We use CAMWorks here at Auer.  It has been around quite a while as an integrated CAM package for SolidWorks.

                  • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                    Autodesks strategy of aggressively buying former third party developers is the correct one.

                     

                    SolidWorks needs to buy CAMWorks from Geometric. This should be done before Geometric develops CAMWorks for Solid Edge ST. This is just smart business although I would greatly prefer to see CAMWorks be developed to run in Solid Edge ST. Perhaps I should shut up but I don't think that would be the ethical thing for me to do.

                     

                    The real problem is that SolidWorks badly needs to change their business stratagy. I have been arguing for years that SolidWorks has the wrong business strategy for third party products. What once worked very well for SolidWorks now needs to be modified as it doesn't work like it use to.

                     

                    There is a tremendous amount of truth about a single integrated system from just one vendor that can be read here:

                     

                    http://www.cimsolutions.com.au/main.asp?p=4

                     

                    Jon Banquer

                    CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                    • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                      Erik Shafer

                      I am in the process of checking out CAMWorks among a few others...  I was going to look at SolidCAM but they don't save their tool path data in the s/w file - not sure I am comfortable with that...  Also looking at MasterCAM for s/w (again) and a few others...  I really don't want to go with a non-integrated package, but that seems to be the safest route at the moment.  My company - Industrial Robotix - is not a production machine shop....we do custom end of arm tooling for robots, welding fixtures, and robotic welding cells....so if we have to spend a little more time programming, so be it...at least when the volitile world of CAD makes changes / acquisitions / kernel changes - my CAM will still function.

                        • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                          "I was going to look at SolidCAM but they don't save their tool path data in the s/w file - not sure I am comfortable with that.."

                           

                          You shouldn't be comfortable with this. I've been after them for the last year to make changes in this area. Think a mini PDM system would work for all the files SolidCAM creates. Hopefully I will have a chance to discuss this next week with senior management in Israel.

                           

                          "Also looking at MasterCAM for s/w (again) and a few others..."

                           

                          Big step backwards.

                           

                          Think you should find a way to wait if possible. We are going to see more consolidation in the CAM business.

                           

                          Jon Banquer

                          CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                        • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                          John Layne

                          You make a very good point Anna.

                           

                          There is always a risk when buying third party add-ins, will they won't they get bought out by SolidWorks or by the competition will always be a question. ElecWorks morphing into SolidWorks Electrical springs to mind.

                           

                          A few years back, I was contracting to a company looking to implement a PDM system it came down to two, PDM Enterprise or DBWorks. We went with PDM Enterprise solely because we were worried that DBWorks would disappear (it hasn't). It must now be very hard for "SolidWorks Partners" to compete against in house products by SolidWorks.

                        • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                          John Burrill

                          Rohit, not to be a rabble-rouser, but with Moldflow, ALGOR the other compantion products that Autodesk has aquired their record thus-far of maintaining Solidworks support leaves cause to be uneasy.

                          They have no reason initially to make HSMWorks incompatible with Solidworks.  I mean the programming interface is complete, the the API will probably be compatible with their existing code for several releases.   The only thing that could change that is if Solidworks refuses to license it's development kit to Autodesk-which does happen occasionally with CAD vendors.

                            • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                              "Rohit, not to be a rabble-rouser, but with Moldflow, ALGOR the other compantion products that Autodesk has aquired their record thus-far of maintaining Solidworks support leaves cause to be uneasy."

                               

                              It's too bad more CADCAM users can't follow your lead and look at a companies past track record and draw reasonable, logical conclusions from it. Instead they want to be given reassurances. Make no mistake, CADCAM companies realize this and play this out to the hilt.

                               

                              I've been around a long time. I was born late at night but it wasn't last night.

                               

                              Jon Banquer

                              CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                          • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                            Autodesk didn't purchase HSMWorks so they could have a CAM program for SolidWorks.

                             

                            Carl Bass has said the future for all Autodesk products is on the cloud:

                             

                            http://www.3dcadtips.com/will-autodesk-products-all-be-used-online/

                             

                            “I’d say two to three years from now, every one of our products will be used online. The only way to use them will be online.”

                             

                            The HSMWorks purchase is all about adding functionality to Autodesks product line that will make cloud computing more complete and more desirable to more CADCAM users.

                             

                            Jon Banquer

                            CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                            • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                              Daen Hendrickson

                              Just a quote from the AutoDesk site:

                               

                              "Autodesk intends to integrate the HSMWorks technology with its industry leading software and cloud services for manufacturing, and will make current HSMWorks products available for purchase and HSMXpress available as a free download. Existing SolidWorks customers using HSMWorks will continue to receive support and product updates.HSMWorks Aps is based in Copenhagen, Denmark."

                               

                              How do you interpret that?

                               

                              Here is the full article:

                               

                              http://news.autodesk.com/news/autodesk/20121001005520/en/Autodesk-Acquires-HSMWorks-Technology

                                • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                  Chris Challinor

                                  conspiracy theory......auto desk to purchase SW

                                   

                                  Practical answer, part of the deal to buy them was to maintain current customers..............until sometime in the future

                                    • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                      Joe Kuzich

                                      Why would you want to give up the current customer base, especially right out of the gate?  I would think they would want to hold on to that income base, at least until they have it solidly integrated with their products.  And then I would only discontinue the SW support if enough research showed that it would encourage enough people to switch to AutoDesk products or if it was just too costly to continue to upgrade it.

                                        • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                          John Burrill

                                          Good call on that, Joe.

                                          You want to know what autodesk's past is in this area, look at what happened with CAiCE.

                                          One of the most lucrative sectors for Autodesk is civil/survey.  Since about 1997, they've been competing with Bentley Geopak to get into State DOT's.  Unfortunately, their initial offering in softdesk and Land Desktop were based on DWG, ActiveX objects and and microsoft access databases-which made it difficult to exchange data and work on large-scale projects.  So the army corp of engineers and 40 of the 50 state DOT's were all using Microstation with Geopak.  CAicE was a civil survey package that had tremendous capabilities for visuallzation, analysis and takeoffs and it was fully compatbile with Autodesks civil solutions and GeoPak.  It cost close to 10K per seat, was node locked and had a customer base on subscription.  In 2004 Autodesk bought CAiCE, changed the name to Autodesk CAiCE released one new version and discontinued development so that they could scoop out the technology inchunks and put it in Civil3D and stall development until Geopak was no longer compatible which would put pressure on state DOT's to shift away from it so that they could continue to work with municiple data. Sometime around 2007, the FDOT switched to Autodesk. Civil products.  I don't know if there was a dominoe effect in other sectors.  What I did know from working with FDOT as an Autodesk support tech was that CAiCE customers were screwed so that Autodesk could undermine a competitor.  I'm not going to complain about the motives for providing me free cam software, but I would probably let my HSMWorks subscription lapse and start looking for other CAM vendors.

                                            • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                              Glenn Schroeder

                                              John Burrill wrote:

                                               

                                              I don't know if there was a dominoe effect in other sectors. 

                                               

                                              TxDOT is still using Microstation, I don't know about others.

                                              • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                                Steve Ostrovsky

                                                Here's another example of an Autodesk software purchase...

                                                 

                                                They bought a product called GenMap that was heavily used by Electric Coops to design their line maps, maintenance, etc. It ran on top of AutoCAD Map and was actually a pretty good product. Autodesk bought the software and then killed the product. Didn't even release another new version. All of the Electric Coops that I worked with here in SC went to ArcGIS products.

                                                 

                                                Autodesk World (GIS product) bought, barely updated and killed off

                                                EcoTech (Susatinable Building Design) - bought a few years ago and barely updated, web site still shows 2011 version

                                          • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                                            "How do you interpret that?"

                                             

                                            It's mostly misdirection.

                                             

                                            Before the purchase of HSMWorks even went down I knew what Autodesk was looking for. Autodesk hasn't come out and said why they really purchased HSMWorks and I doubt they will. If Autodesk did come out and state their true intentions of why they purchased HSMWorks at this point in time it would effect their current and short term future income on their purchase of HSMWorks.

                                             

                                            Jon Banquer

                                            CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                                          • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                            Matt Wallace

                                            I think the future of HSMworks in Solidworks does not extend beyond SW2013, which HSMWorks2012 currently runs in.  HSMWorks 2013 may or may not be released.  The product will undergo a name change, and still be available as a standalone application, but the days of SW integration are numbered.

                                             

                                            While they say existing customers will continue to receive support, it won't be from the HSMWorks resellers they acquired the product from, since Autodesk terminated all the reseller agreements.  That, and given the heavyhanded moderation going on in the HSMWorks forum, does not make me anxious to do business with Autodesk.

                                             

                                            For some humour, in the lead 'Case Story' on the HSMWorks site, the subject talks about how he got Solidworks because Autodesk products didn't cut it. 

                                             

                                            Why Autodesk didn't acquire one of the CAM products that already run inside Inventor is beyond me.

                                              • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                                                "but the days of SW integration are numbered."

                                                 

                                                I don't believe for one second that this purchase was about offering a CAM product for SolidWorks. Autodesk could care less about this.

                                                 

                                                "That, and given the heavyhanded moderation going on in the HSMWorks forum, does not make me anxious to do business with Autodesk."

                                                 

                                                Autodesk has alway engaged in "heavyhanded" modertion. So has HSMWorks on their forum. So does SolidWorks here.

                                                 

                                                "Why Autodesk didn't acquire one of the CAM products that already run inside Inventor is beyond me."

                                                 

                                                Because developing a CAM product for Inventor is not what motivated the purchase of HSMWorks by Autodesk. If this was the case Open Mind Hypermill would be the company that should have been purchased by Autodesk as it's far and away the most powerful product that runs inside Autodesk Inventor.

                                                 

                                                It's all about CAM in the cloud. It's not about CAM for Inventor or SolidWorks.

                                                 

                                                Jon Banquer

                                                CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                                              • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                                Erik Shafer

                                                I just wanted to mention - I discontinued my account on the HSMworks forum due to the infiltration of AD resellers smooth talking the subject....but I do peep in there to see what's going on...  I am living vicariously through Jerryflyguy - his statements are exactly inline with what my thoughts are, and I am glad to see him standing up for the soon to be withering group of s/w + HSM folks...

                                                 

                                                http://forum.hsmworks.com/index.php?topic=1358.msg5852#new

                                                 

                                                Jerryflyguy if you are reading this post here in the s/w forum - way to go man, couldn't have said it better myself.

                                                  • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                                                    "Jerryflyguy if you are reading this post here in the s/w forum - way to go man, couldn't have said it better myself."

                                                     

                                                    Agree. Nice to see someone not fall for the B.S. and refuse to be suckered.

                                                     

                                                    Jerryflyguy has a much better understanding of what happened than even former resellers of HSMWorks save the one who created the training videos do. The one who created the training videos knows how badly he got "f"ed. I had a nice conversation with him on the phone yesterday and he's very pissed off. He has every right to be very pissed off because HSMWorks really screwed him. A lot of the work that he did, he did for nothing. I was offered this work before he was and I turned it down as it was piece work with nothing permanent. It's truly very sad how poorly HSMWorks was run and how little HSMWorks wanted to spend for documentation and proper marketing. HSMWorks wanted both for free and sadly they got a lot of it for free. 

                                                     

                                                    Jerryflyguy should be posting to the CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn where both Autodesk and SolidWorks employees will read what he has to say. Lots of employees who work for Autodesk are members. They don't read the HSMWork forum, they don't read this forum and they don't read CNC Advertising Zone.

                                                     

                                                    Jon Banquer

                                                    CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                                                  • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                                                    http://www10.mcadcafe.com/blogs/jeffrowe/2012/10/04/mcadcafe-weekly-1042012-autodesk-acquiring-hsmworks-cam-technology/?interstitial_displayed=Yes&utm_source=buffer&buffer_share=65518

                                                     

                                                    "Over the years I’ve seen CAD/CAM/CAE customers blindsided by vendors, but this acquisition may well take the cake."

                                                     

                                                    It's actually only the icing on the cake. How HSMWorks was being run previous to this acquisition is the cake.

                                                     

                                                    "When asked who within Autodesk would head up HSMWorks going forward, Cole said that was still being decided and that no organizational structure had been announced yet."

                                                     

                                                    All the more reason for HSMWorks users to post comments where Autodesk people who can make a difference will see them. There are many Autodesk employees who are members of the CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn.

                                                     

                                                    "Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a great acquisition for Autodesk, but you have to wonder, did Dassault Systemes SolidWorks have the opportunity to make the acquisition? With HSMWorks being a SolidWorks Gold Partner, DS had to have known that the company was in play. Did they choose not to act? And if so, why?"

                                                     

                                                    When it comes to CAM, SolidWorks hasn't acted for years. It would be a huge mistake for SolidWorks to not act now and to act very quickly (like yesterday) before Geometric offers CAMWorks for Solid Edge ST with a different name.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Jon Banquer

                                                    CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn


                                                    • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                                      Erik Shafer

                                                      Well, I had to reactivate my account on the HSM forum - reading some of the posts there has gotten me pretty fired up today...


                                                      The Autodesk resellers are now posting their true colors to our very valid concern for the future of s/w and HSMWorks....  In reply to Jerryflyguy, Mike62 went on a personal attack.  I really feel that many of us HSM/SW users feel exactly the way Jerryflyguy does, and I feel he has presented a very valid case....however not according to Mike62 - who by the way is an employee of an Autodesk reseller...


                                                      Quotes fro Mike62 - a proclaimed employee of an Autodesk reseller:

                                                      "Stop our *****ing", we are "amrchair idiots", "offensive", we "look foolish", are "trolls", are "Way out of line" and are to just "switch platforms" if we are not happy.  Also "Monkey slinging feces" was mentioned.  Excellent.


                                                      Post can be read in its entirety here:

                                                      Autodesk acquisition


                                                      Very classy!!

                                                        • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                                                          One can either waste time and effort arguing with someone who works for an Autodesk reseller or take their case directly those who hold very powerful positions at Autodesk. I've provided a venue for Jerry and others to do that. That choice to actually use that venue is up to HSMWorks users that are upset like Jerry is.

                                                           

                                                          I've been around a long time. I understand how the CADCAM business works and what needs to be done to get real change. I've gotten change in the past but it hasn't been very easy.

                                                           

                                                          It's impossible to get change in the CADCAM business wasting time arguing with a powerless and dull tool who works for an Autodesk reseller. Unfortunately when you're a really nice guy, like Jerry is, and you're up against the kind of corruption that exists in the CADCAM industry, using the nice guy tactics that Jerry is using means you are going to get used / slaughtered. Jerry is already becoming much less effective by wasting time arguing his point on the HSMWorks forum and on CNC Advertising Zone. Even if Jerry wins his point (the guy who works for an Autodesk reseller will probably apologize) he has blown valuable time in getting those who work for Autodesk attention and has been totally sidetracked.

                                                           

                                                          You have done your part. Other HSMWorks users need to step up and do their part if they really want change.

                                                           

                                                          Jon Banquer

                                                          CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                                                        • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                                          John Layne

                                                          Read this on Matt Lombards Blog

                                                           

                                                          An Open Letter to HSMWorks Customers

                                                           

                                                          http://forum.hsmworks.com/index.php?topic=1385.0

                                                           

                                                          As Matt pointed out item 10.1 make interesting reading!

                                                            • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                                                              I've had many years of dealing with HSMWorks. HSMWorks problems have nothing to do with SolidWorks or Dassault. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've posted what the real truth is about HSMWorks on many independent blogs for the last year. History now shows just how right I was in what I had to say about problems with HSMWorks development. This SolidWorks blogger and the author of many SolidWorks books has never had anything to say about HSMWorks until now. Nothing, nada, zilch.

                                                               

                                                              The real truth about HSMWorks problems can be found on the CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn. It can also be found in talking with one of the ex HSMWorks resellers that got badly burned by HSMWorks that I'm in contact with. I intend to make at least one if these ex HSMWorks resellers available if I can get him to agree and I think I can. Right now his priority is to find a new CAM system to represent and I'm trying my best to help him with this.

                                                               

                                                              Jon Banquer

                                                              CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                                                              • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                                                Rohit Mitra

                                                                "Sales of HSMWorks Standard, Assembly, and Professional, as well as Autodesk HSMWorks Standard, Assembly, and Professional (OEM product) licenses were ended effective 3 October 2012 when we were officially notified by Dassault Systèmes SolidWorks Corp.  that they were exercising their right to terminate our OEM Agreement."

                                                                 

                                                                Boom goes the dynamite?

                                                                  • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                                                                    It's very convenient for some people to blame SolidWorks/Dassault for HSMWorks own problems.

                                                                     

                                                                    The HSMWorks marketing plan was to capture the SolidWorks reseller market and be the dominant player. After many years of availability HSMWorks only managed to get one SolidWorks reseller in the US which was CADD Edge. CADD Edge was easily outsold by a former Mastercam, Open Mind Hypermill, SmartCAM and SolidCAM reseller.

                                                                     

                                                                    I find it interesting that this kind of FACT about HSMWorks and many others are never, ever mentioned.

                                                                     

                                                                    HSMWorks sold to Autodesk because they were undercapitalized and because they didn't have the needed sales volume. SolidWorks/Dassualt is not the cause of HSMWorks problems or the reason HSMWorks had to sell out.

                                                                     

                                                                    Jon Banquer

                                                                    CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                                                                • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?

                                                                  The following link backs up everything I've been saying about why HMSWorks was sold and what the real problems were with HSMWorks.

                                                                   

                                                                  HSMWorks can't hide the real truth from those who have years and years of experience with the CAM industry and who are honest. Neither can the SolidWorks blogger and SolidWorks book author who is trying to use the HSMWorks sale to Autodesk to further his cause. This blogger and SolidWorks book author has no interest in the real truth which is that Dassault/SolidWorks isn't the reason HSMWorks was sold to Autodesk.

                                                                   

                                                                  http://www.mecsoft.com/blog/hsmworks-acquired-by-autodesk/

                                                                   

                                                                  "And HSMWorks ain’t Autodesk.  It is a small company trying to keep the lights on. A year later they sell out. Connect the dots and I am almost certain that this was a fire sale.  In my opinion, HSMWorks initiated this acquisition conversation because they were in financial trouble or the founders were just tired of not gaining any traction in the marketplace."

                                                                   

                                                                  I've known Joe Anand owner of Mecsoft for many years. He's one of the few straight shooters in the CADCAM business and I have nothing but respect for him.

                                                                   

                                                                  Jon Banquer

                                                                  CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                                                                    • Re: Future of HSMWorks in Solidworks?
                                                                      Joe Kuzich

                                                                      So reading that it sounds like it is Joe Anand's opinion that HSMWorks was going under but instead of waiting till they were dead decided to sell out to AD.  If I understand that theory correctly either way the resellers would be in for the same result, albeit it was a very bad way of handling things.  As for the customers, it very well may end the same way for them but it's still not certain.   Had they not sold out then the customers would certainly be without anything. 

                                                                       

                                                                      I understand people being mad and frustrated but if Joe Anand is correct they may not have had much choice.Perhaps I am not understanding it correctly, but that is how it sounds to me.  I highly doubt that either side is 100% correct and that there is some truth in all sides.