24 Replies Latest reply on Jul 26, 2012 10:34 PM by Alan Kirkpatrick

    Solid state hard drives

    Phil Marra

      I am looking at upgrading from Vista Ulitimate to Win 7. While doing that I would like to swap out my smallish hard drive to a solid state drive.

      Any suggestions on what I should purchase? Its for a mobile workstation and I am thinking 500gb would do.

      Any performance issues?

       

      Thanks in advance

       

      Phil

        • Re: Solid state hard drives
          Gary Radish

          You will get great performance just less life they wear out i have gone through 4 in a year but i was prepared and had back-ups

            • Re: Solid state hard drives
              Phil Marra

              Interesting, I would think a solid state drive not having moving parts would have a longer life. Performance in my machine is really good so a little better performance isnt worth the short shelf life.

               

              Thanks for your thought s Gary!

                • Re: Solid state hard drives
                  Kelvin Lamport

                  Gary's SSD lifespan is unusually short. If that were the norm, no-one would be buying them. Normal lifespan is years, not months.

                   

                  http://maxschireson.com/2011/04/21/debunking-ssd-lifespan-and-random-write-performance-concerns/

                  http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-520-sandforce-review-benchmark,3124-11.html

                  • Re: Solid state hard drives

                    SSHD's fail at alarming rates. Do a web search. They offer a tremendous performance gain if you can handle the good possibility of a failure.

                     

                    Jon Banquer

                    San Diego, CA

                    CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                    • Re: Solid state hard drives
                      Charles Culp

                      SSD's have lower failure rates than HDD's. Jon's information is out of date, that was for drives made 4+ years ago.

                       

                      http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-reliability-failure-rate,2923.html

                       

                      Today, your best bet for SolidWorks is a SSD. If the cost is too much, you can use a primary SSD with a secondary HDD for data storage. I have a single SSD in my workstation at work.

                        • Re: Solid state hard drives

                          My information isn't out of date. In addition, I've had two SSD hard drives fail me in the last six months. Both were less than a year old.

                           

                          This article is a little over a year old:

                           

                          http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2011/05/the-hot-crazy-solid-state-drive-scale.html

                           

                          "… I feel ethically and morally obligated to let you in on a dirty little secret I've discovered in the last two years of full time SSD ownership. Solid state hard drives fail. A lot. And not just any fail. I'm talking about catastrophic, oh-my-God-what-just-happened-to-all-my-data instant gigafail. It's not pretty. "

                           

                          "Portman Wills, friend of the company and generally awesome guy, has a far scarier tale to tell. He got infected with the SSD religion based on my original 2009 blog post, and he went all in. He purchased eight SSDs over the last two years … and all of them failed. The tale of the tape is frankly a little terrifying:

                           

                          • Super Talent 32 GB SSD, failed after 137 days
                          • OCZ Vertex 1 250 GB SSD, failed after 512 days
                          • G.Skill 64 GB SSD, failed after 251 days
                          • G.Skill 64 GB SSD, failed after 276 days
                          • Crucial 64 GB SSD, failed after 350 days
                          • OCZ Agility 60 GB SSD, failed after 72 days
                          • Intel X25-M 80 GB SSD, failed after 15 days
                          • Intel X25-M 80 GB SSD, failed after 206 days"

                           

                           

                          Jon Banquer

                          San Diego, CA

                          CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                            • Re: Solid state hard drives
                              Kelvin Lamport

                              They probably committed suicide. 

                               

                              Sorry, Jon, I just couldn't resist that one.  The made me do it.

                               

                               

                              EDIT:  SSDs are not recommended for users editing source code. That involves way more rewrites than the normal usage, even for CAD.

                              • Re: Solid state hard drives
                                Rohit Mitra

                                Those drives are all pretty old and the article goes on to recommend the solid state drives anyways. Some of those drives are two generations behind what's current.

                                  • Re: Solid state hard drives

                                    Problems are still rampent with newer SSD's

                                     

                                    http://tinyurl.com/cje74kl

                                     

                                    The following was posted March 2012:

                                     

                                    "I Purchased an OCZ Petrol 2 weeks ago. The last few days it's been dissapearing from the BIOS more and more frequently, to the point now, where I can't get it recognised at all.

                                     

                                    The whole computer was a completely new system, all just 2 weeks old, latest drivers, windows 7 64 bit, & it's been kept off the net.

                                     

                                    this is my second experience with a SSD, both have ended badly. After some research it seems loads of people are having similar problems with these SSD's

                                     

                                    Back to drives with moving parts for me now........ "

                                     

                                    The performance benefit and payback is so great that many (myself included) are willing to risk it but make no mistake newer SSD still fail like crazy.

                                     

                                    Jon Banquer

                                    San Diego, CA

                                    CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                                  • Re: Solid state hard drives
                                    Charles Culp

                                    Yes. your information is out of date.

                                     

                                    New Apple Laptops: http://www.apple.com/macbookair/

                                    DropBox: http://www.wired.com/cloudline/2012/06/flash-forward/

                                    Amazon: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/flash-data-centers/all/

                                    Facebook: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/flash-data-centers/all/
                                    Google:http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/flash-data-centers/all/

                                     

                                    All use flash storage. Those names basically speak for themselves. These are experts in their field (data storage) and they are all moving to SSD. So should everyone here, we need the performance even more so than data centers. Tied with a good PDM system, and plummeting prices over the past 3 months, this is the only good answer.

                                     

                                    Buy intel SSDs and never look back. And then run backup, everyone should be doing that, too.

                                      • Re: Solid state hard drives

                                        More up to date information on SSD failures:

                                         

                                        March 1st 2012:

                                         

                                        Broken Fail -- Mushkin Callisto SSD Computer Hard Drive - 2 Dead Within A Few months:

                                         

                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At2_uRgr48I

                                         

                                         

                                        May 2nd 2012:

                                         

                                        http://devblog.seomoz.org/2012/05/ssd-drive-failures/

                                         

                                         

                                        "... we were using SSD drives in a heavily read/write environment to be super-fast harddrives and many of them failed all at once."

                                         

                                        "Between Sunday night and Monday afternoon, 5 drives started to fail."

                                         

                                        "SSDs can only tolerate a limited number of R/W cycles and we hit the limit on R/W cycles on most of our SSDs at the same time, causing a catastrophic failure, despite having redundant drives. Sadly, there is no way to query the SSDs for their lifecycle information."

                                         

                                        "Until we can get SSDs that can tell us when they are used up, we cannot use them in an application the rewrites a lot of data. This data is now on spinning disks, and we will work to make sure that the these provide sufficient redundancy and performance. We may need to add more processing nodes or pre-compute other values to improve performance from spinning disk."

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        Jon Banquer

                                        San Diego, CA

                                        CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

                                          • Re: Solid state hard drives
                                            Charles Culp

                                            See, your arguments are finding specific examples of people who have had failures.

                                             

                                            I can counter your argument by saying that the last Hard Disk I purchased failed within a month of purchase, and I had to have it replaced by the manufacturer (true statement). HDD failures are typically catastrophic, while SSDs are not (you only lose a little data, instead of the whole drive).

                                             

                                            What I argued, is that as a whole SSDs are more reliable, and I have rigourous research by looking at an entire dataset of drives, to show that in general SSDs are more reliable than HDD.

                                             

                                            If I go out and find specific instances where people complain that their HDD failed, does that prove my argument? No, no better than your arguments prove your point. Sorry you lost data on an SSD once, but don't let that sour good judgement.

                                             

                                            This article that I linked to earlier is a good source of a reliable research into a large set of data:
                                            http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-reliability-failure-rate,2923.html

                                             

                                            And as I also already said, all the experts agree with me, all you have are "a few people on the internet", which is to say, a very horrible source.

                                              • Re: Solid state hard drives
                                                Gary Radish

                                                Honestly Charles that is a weak place to look for true reliability I would rather visit new egg and get real life SSD history from people who bought and used.  Thats why when you buy you should research I thought I was buying a good SSD paid more cause it had good ratings and reviews 4 failed Intel 320 SSD's later I am more cautious recommending.  But they are fast I still recommended if you are going to use for your precious data go raid 1 with two or more. Or have a good back-up

                                                  • Re: Solid state hard drives
                                                    Charles Culp

                                                    I can't emphasize this enough, RAID 1 is not backup. Anyone who has tried to actually recover data from RAID 1 will understand.

                                                     

                                                    Instead of RAID, just install a second disk, and have it run a backup.

                                                      • Re: Solid state hard drives
                                                        Gary Radish

                                                        No RAID 1 isn't a backup it is a mirror and has saved me countless hours just plug new as primary and I am off and running.  No attempt to restore from back-up and hope it comes back anyone who has restored from back-up also knows that is a crap shoot also I will take my chances by spending a little extra and do both.  I am quite experienced with the process see my 4 failures this year.  But I also do back-up just in case both fail at same time. Hard Drives are a lot cheaper then redrawing

                                                    • Re: Solid state hard drives

                                                      "See, your arguments are finding specific examples of people who have had failures."

                                                       

                                                      That's right and I'm one of them as I've had two SSD's fail in the last six months.

                                                       

                                                      "Sorry you lost data on an SSD once, but don't let that sour good judgement."

                                                       

                                                      Not once, twice in the last six months. The two SSD's that failed were made by different manufactures.

                                                       

                                                      "And as I also already said, all the experts agree with me, all you have are "a few people on the internet", which is to say, a very horrible source."

                                                       

                                                      There are lots of people on the internet who state the truth about horrible SSD reliabilty and not all "experts" agree with you.

                                                       

                                                      Jon Banquer

                                                      San Diego, CA

                                                      CADCAM Technology Leaders group on LinkedIn

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                                                • Re: Solid state hard drives
                                                  Alan Kirkpatrick

                                                  I have 5 Intel SSD's with varying ages that I've run for 1-3 years. I often run SW 12-14 hours a day and I haven't had any failures. On the other hand I also bought several Seagate "Enterprise" drives and I've had 4 of them fail.

                                                  The performance improvement offered by SSD's is greater than any hardware change I've ever seen. I do keep my data backed up, but anyone who doesn't will get burned no matter what drive you use. If you're really concerned about an SSD failing you can buy two, create an image of your software on the 2nd one, and put it on the shelf. If you're using an 80-120GB SSD they're not very expensive.

                                                  I use the SSD for my OS and software only, and have a WD Raptor hard drive for data. This is an amazing setup that has terrific performance. That said, I'm greatly disappointed to read about the reduced reliability of the 25nm nand drives.

                                          • Re: Solid state hard drives
                                            David Paulson

                                            Phil,

                                             

                                            Certainly another opinion won't hurt............

                                             

                                            I am on my fifth SSD.  Of the five, one failed within one month of starting it up.  Replaced by OCZ on expedited basis.

                                             

                                            My desktop workstation has two SSD's (one for OS and APPs and one for Swap) with two HDD's RAID-1

                                             

                                            I have two laptops with SSD's.

                                             

                                            The laptop data files are synched with the destop HDD's.

                                             

                                            I have experienced no data loss due to SSD failure.  But ultimately, only OS and Apps are not backed up.  So restoration should not be a very big issue.  The speed you get rebooting is worth it.  Don't think speed to data access is worth it to me.  If your mobile workstation will support two droives, you might consider a SSD for the OS and Apps and a HDD for the data.  I highly recommend SSD's.