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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
The attached file is what the customer sent me. I had to get approval to post it. Pretty simple to reproduce.
Windows 7 SP1 64 bit
SW 2011 SP0 and SP3
Office 2010, but no Outlook
Aero Wallpaper turned on or off
Various Monitor resolutions
Intel Sandy Bridge
P67 motherboard
8GB DDR3
NVidia Quadro FX1400 with approved driver and with latest driver from NVidia
Software OpenGL
Testing was done on a clean install of the OS and SW with no virus checker or any other unnecessary software installed.
Event viewer was checked for OS and/or application issues. None found.
Machine runs Anna Wood's Punch Holder in 47 seconds.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John Sweeney
May 30, 2011 9:48 PM
Hi Paul,
This sounds like the same problem discussed in the following thread: This was believed to have been fixed in SW2010 SP4, but it sounds like you may have a new scenario that is causing the same issue. As a you mention in your post, you should be able to get rid of the "screen junk" shown in the lower portion of the FeatureMgr by dragging the edge of the FeatureMgr window to change its width. The screen junk you see with the stale display is actually screen area where a window has failed to resize itself, so you're seeing dead space where no window exists. Since, technically, there is no window in that area, the area doesn't get painted and shows that last thing which occupied the area.
This particular issue was happening on x64 machines and related to window heirarchy and the window messaging used by the operating system to resize all child windows. I've tried to lay out my SW session like yours with the pinned taskpane and docked bottom toolbar, but I can't reproduce the issue my Win7 x64 laptop. Is there anything else unusual on your machine? Do you have any addins loaded that might also be watching document actions, etc.? Does the issue reproduce every time you tile and then maximize one of the docs, or for example, does the problem go away if the taskpane is unpinned, or if you remove the docked toolbar from the bottom row, or perhaps if you maximize the document by double-clicking the title bar vs. clicking the "restore" button? I've tried quite a few variations, but can't come up with a reproducer...
Thanks in Advance,
John
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John,
Thanks for the other link. I tried searching first and didn't find that one.
The machine was configured as I stated in my response to Deepak. Not everybody sees this problem, but those that do have no problem identifying it.
Fresh OS install, fresh Office install and fresh SW Standard install. So no addins, no virus checker, nothing extraneous. I don't recall pinning the task pane. I may have pinned the menu bar.
The machine is back at my customer's office. He is satisfied it wasn't the hardware and so am I. He put in a report through his VAR before I got the machine so SW should see it coming in at some point soon.
He had another issue with selection boxes not resizing properly when mating. He uses the 125% bigger display font option in Windows 7. SW doesn't deal well with that either. The workaround was a custom resize of 122% which seemed to work fine.
As far as your description of the problem there is another aspect to it. It isn't just that what was underneath is showing through, but the FT doesn't resize to fit the FT of the current document. That only happens when the resize is performed.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John,
Just an update.
The problem was sent to the VAR. The VAR sent it to SW. SW told the VAR they couldn't reproduce the problem which doesn't surprise me. The VAR sent a Quadro 4000 graphics card to try. I installed the card after uninstalling the old drivers and the problem presists. This problem does not happen on the customers laptop (NVidia FX2700) just like it can't be reproduced on your laptop. Some people have it and some don't. We used this problem to show our user group how to use RX at a meeting a few weeks ago. One CAD manager (maybe 15 seats) has seen it and another user popped up right away and had seen it. But they haven't reported it to SWX.
I have attached the system.nfo file which is human readable and shows what hardware the problem is occurring on. Of course the problem doesn't just happen on this hardware. It has been reported with both ATI and NVidia graphics cards.
Just to mention again, wiped the machine and reinstalled the OS, Office and SW and the problem persisted. Of course approved and tested graphics drivers were used. This was before installing any other programs including anti-virus software.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
No issues here on SW2011 SP 4.0 EV XP 64 bit
Try updating the graphics card if that helps.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Deepak,
Seems to be a Windows7 problem. XP users like myself do not see it.
Did you have the problem previously?
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Deepak,
I have received enough input from users to be satisfied that it is a SolidWorks/Windows7 issue. A number of users have come forward on various fora including this one with the same or similar problems. The fact that the problem doesn't go away with Software OpenGL or with different video cards takes the focus away from that cause. Why it doesn't occur with every SolidWorks 2011/Windows 7 Ultimate combination I cannot say, but it does occur with some. A programmer friend familiar with Windows but not SW suggested that SolidWorks was losing track of the handle for that window. I don't know about that because I am not a programmer.
Sorting out why it occurs on some installations and not others is something SolidWorks is best suited to figure out because they get the RX reports and have the means to interpret them and they have access to the source code so they alone can debug the problem.
Thanks for the responses,
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
I have the same, SW2011 SP3 on Win7 64 Bit and I do see this from time to time. Never really bothered me enough to do anything about it though...just drag the arrows a little and it goes away.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
A quick RX sent to your VAR wouldn't take too much time to do. Besides this problem, in talking to people, other parts of the GUI have problems too. It can only get worse.
What graphics card are you running?
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Jeff,
Can you run an RX on your machine and attach the .nfo file from the RX zip archive? I don't need the whole RX file, just the nfo file.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Yes, I've seen that on two machines running Windows 7, 64-bit, in both SW v2010 and v2011. One machine had an ATI FireGL V5600 and the other a Quadro FX 4000. So I'm not sure why it does this. Closing/restarting SolidWorks solves the problem, though that is terribly cumbersome.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
I'm seeing it with a Quadro FX1400 and SW approved driver or with the latest NVIDIA driver. Restarting SW doesn't help.
Update 6/20/11: Also seeing it with Quadro FX1500 and Quadro 4000.
I just went through a clean install of OS, Office, and SW. Nice way to spend Memorial day weekends.
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PS Thanks guys. Big help.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Another update on troubleshooting graphics problems.
Do this at your own risk!!
A troubleshooter went into Device Manager and disabled the graphics card. This actually solved the problem temporarily. When disabling the graphics adapter you have to reboot. The computer then comes up in 640x480 VGA mode.
This technique goes one step further than SoftwareOpenGL mode which only makes SW think the graphics card is VGA only. This mode makes the OS also think the graphics card is VGA 640x480. This is necessary because SW will not run in SafeMode.
Disabling the graphics adapter got SW to handle the Feature Manager refresh correctly. Sometimes if you re-enable the graphics adapter SW will still function correctly. But on the next cold reboot SW will behave as before with the refresh problem.
Since disabling graphics adapter temporarily solved the problem and SoftwareOpenGL didn't, this suggests that the problem is with the Windows 7.
To further resolve the issue I looked at the Hardware Compatibility List for Windows 7 x64 and there is only one Quadro graphics adapter that is Windows 7 Logo certified and there are 9 NVidia Quadro adapters that are listed as compatible. This is a far smaller list than that appearing on SolidWorks Graphics adapter list (31 vs 9) especially because the MicroSoft list specifies part number and manufacturer, not just type as is common in the NVIdia world.
In the ATI FirePro world the HCL lists 13 adapters as compatible and 12 as Windows 7 Logo certified. SW list has 20 FirePro adapters listed and 5 FireGL adapters listed.
The street price of the only Windows 7 Logo certified Quadro is currently $858.44 - $2,960.99
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
UPDATE 6/8/11
WORK AROUND (at your own risk)
In Windows 7 it is not possible to run SW in SafeMode. In previous OS and SW versions it was possible to do this to completely disable the graphics drivers.Using Device Manager to disable the video drivers will allow a complete, clean un-install of the graphics drivers. After un-installing I used a registry cleaner (CrapCleaner) to remove all registry entries pertaining to the graphics drivers and then I removed all the driver files from Program Files.
On reboot, after the foregoing, Windows7 x64 will install the WDDM drivers which will provide the same resolution as the video card's driver provided, but without OpenGL support. This forces both the OS and SW to operate in Software OpenGL mode. And this fixes the problem with the Feature tree at the expense of not having hardware OpenGL and thus with a performance hit.
DRIVERS AND HARDWARE
I found that the video card, while being a SW tested and approved card was not on the Microsoft HCL for Windows 7. I obtained a similar card that was both SW approved and on the Microsoft HCL and it made no difference.MORE OCCURRENCES FOUND
This subject came up at our user group meeting last night. Several commented that they had this problem including a CAD Manager with quite a few seats. Unfortunately they just were putting up with the problem and not reporting it. So I can now say that I have found the problem to occur on at least 25 machines and the number is climbing. Unfortunately many of those people are not reporting the problem.-
Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Paul, thanks for the detailed follow-up.
I've since found that I can do some window-jogging to get the issue to clear while SW is still running. So I'll tile the windows horizontally, for instance, click another part/window that's not exhibiting this problem, and then either tile horizontally again (and select the previously problematic part/assembly) or select Window > (previously problematic part/assembly). I'm not exactly certain which combination of this window jogging does the trick, but I've had it work several times. If you try messing around with this, you'll probably have similar results--just pay attention to exactly what you do, or you'll end up not remembering the "trick" that solves the problem (like in my own case).
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Jeff,
Can you run RX and attach just the nfo file for the machines on which this occurs?
TIA
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Let me see what I can do. I've rarely had an instance in which RX caught what was actually going on (and provided useful problem-solving info), but it may work this time.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
I often have the same problem...very annoying.
Here are a couple pics. Notice how the "Bad Tree" has a relic on the lower half, like the screen is not repainting correctly.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John Sweeney
Jun 20, 2011 12:58 PM
Hi Guys,
Since we're having trouble reproducing ths on our end... I'm looking for a some kind of common theme between those of you who see the issue... One thing that strikes me in Doug's image is the amount of toolbars displayed. For those of you seeing the issue, do you tend to have many toolbars turned on?
Thanks,
John
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
No, I only have the Command Manager active with some custom macro buttons added to my "Standard" bar off to the right of the File menus and default buttons.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
I only have the Macros toolbar on.
I see it more often after I have had some other app window up over my SW window. And it seems to be more prevalent when I have something large open, as in SW using 2-3Gb of RAM.
WT
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
I use lots of toolbars, similar to what Doug shows (less clicks for many of the tools that way), and often see the problem after SolidWorks has been open a while with lots of part/assembly windows open, chugging a decent amount of RAM (yet nowhere near half my 12GB limit).
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Well, I just got it to happen again, but no RX for this. I was going to simply shut down SW, since it had been open for such a long time, and I saw the glitch again (see snapshot). When SW closed, I had the Windows error message that SW unexpectedly shut down (even though I told it to do so).
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
This ought to drive SWX nuts. Some people get it all the time. Some when memory is filled, Some after running for a long time. Talk about a gremlin in the works.
BTW, Jeff, All I need from the RX is the nfo file. You don't even have to reproduce the problem to generate this file.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Yeah, I'll bet it does. In my snapshot, you see we've got partial view of the part file (top) and partial view of the assembly file (bottom).
I've attached the Zipped NFO in this link.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Thanks.
You're running the 32nm version of the Nehalem core vs Doug's 45nm version of the same. You are on SP1 of Ultimate, my machine is on SP1 of Professional.
So far the only real commonality is Windows 7 and SWX2011 and that is common to machines that don't have the problem too.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John,
Thanks for popping back in on this.
I too have been looking for a common thread. One thread that is common is how few people are sending this in. The VAR claims to have never seen this, yet in a UG meeting, when I show the problem the hands fly up all over the room as they are here. I know SWX isn't in the practice of looking for problems, but I'll bet if you could ask the user base about this you would get a lot of examples.
Been reading about how W7 handles graphics. In doing so I came across something MSoft did to find usability problems that wouldn't show up in ordinary testing, i.e., the hard to reproduce variety. MSoft gave their testers a "Button" to press when a problem cropped up that captured what was going on shortly before, during and after the problem. A short description would also be entered. In doing this they were able to zero in a this type of problem.
Perhaps someone could come up with a quicky macro we could use when this occurs to capture and send to SWX what is going on. RX doesn't seem to have a very fine grained recording of user action or what is going on in SWX.
One sure fire way to get rid of the problem is to disable the graphics card driver and let Windows 7 install it's default WDDM driver. SW then runs in SoftWare OpenGL mode, but the problem goes away. Unfortunately, as my customer found, the default Windows 7 driver doesn't look so good on some monitors, so he went back to the Graphics Card driver.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John,
Can you upload the .nfo file from your laptop? I'll have a look at it like I did with Doug's nfo file. I didn't see a lot of commonality between our two machines which kind of points to software. Whether it is something with Windows 7 or SWX or both remains to be seen.
Interestingly Doug is running an off the shelf Dell machine and the machine I am having trouble with is custom built.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John Sweeney
Jun 23, 2011 4:41 PM
Hi Paul,
My sense is that this won't be hardware dependent (other than it is limited to x64 machines only). I'm guessing it is more of an "environmental" issue, meaning it is tied to the individual user steps and machine setup, for example, it may be influenced by toolbar layout, number of files open, etc.
We'll keep digging on our end.
Thanks,
John
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John, and all--not sure if this is a relevant key or not, but often when I have another application open (such as Firefox) with SW v2011 open and minimized, if I minimize that other application, SW will suddenly volunteer into maximized state, top application window. Is this something anyone else has seen? Just wondering if there's any correlation.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John,
This is happening on machines with all kinds of settings and toolbar configurations. In my case I completely rebuilt my customer's computer, reformatted the drive and clean install of OS and SWX and nothing else and it happened right "out of the box". In other people's cases it has happened on "seasoned" machines with all kinds of other stuff installed and running. I think if you can compare RX files you will find that out. We know that the Software OpenGL setting in SWX does not make the problem go away, but running the WDDM driver in Windows 7 x64 does make the problem go away. That setting also puts SWX into Software OpenGL mode. So looking at the layers of software between the GUI and the graphics hardware, the problem goes away when the graphics driver is removed and the default WDDM driver is in place. The problem has the nature of a race condition in the driver or something between SWX and the driver.
It would be interesting to look over some RX files of people with the same OS and graphics cards as the guys here and who are not having the problem.
Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
- Here are my system stats:
- Software Version: SolidWorks 2011
- Service Pack: 3.0
- Hardware: Dell Precision T7500, 64 bit, Intel Zeon 2.00 GHz CPU, 12 GB Ram, NVIDIA Quadro FX 4800, Windows 7
And as you can see by my pics, I do indeed have the same issue.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Doug and all with this problem,
If you could run RX. You don't have to capture the video. All I want to see is one file from within the zip file, the file with the .nfo extension. That files gives a complete description of your hardware in a consistent way.
You have caught another version of the same problem I am seeing and you caught the "tiling" problem that originally came to light.
When I reproduce this problem I can open SWX from a fresh install with default settings and see the problem. The number of toolbars doesn't seem to drive it.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
I've never done a Solidworks Rx Capture before, but based on your request I think the attached file is what you are asking for. Let me know if it is not.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
I just needed one file out of the archive, the system.nfo file. I spent a little time comparing side by side. This certainly isn't a full comparison, just some high points.
You have a Gainestown architecture processor which is 45nm Nehalem family. I have the Sandy-Bridge processor which is in the 32nm Sandy Bridge family.
You have the Dell Bios, I have the American Megatrends Bios
You have 12.0 GB ram, I have 8.0 GB ram
We both have the same hardware abstraction layer
You have Intel(R) 5520/5500/X58 I/O Hub PCI Express Root Port 7 - 340E and I have Intel(R) 6 Series/C200 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 8 - 1C1E
You have NVIDIA Quadro FX 4800 and I have NVIDIA Quadro 4000 (FX1400 and FX1500 also.
You have Broadcom NetXtreme II VBD and I have Broadcom NetXtreme II VBD
You have c:\windows\system32\drivers\bxvbda.sys and I have c:\windows\system32\drivers\bxvbda.sys
You have Broadcom NetXtreme Gigabit Ethernet - NDIS 6.0 and I have Broadcom NetXtreme Gigabit Ethernet - NDIS 6.0]
You have c:\windows\system32\drivers\b57nd60a.sys and I have c:\windows\system32\drivers\b57nd60a.sys
You have LDDM Graphics Subsystem and I have LDDM Graphics Subsystem
You havec:\windows\system32\drivers\dxgkrnl.sys and I have c:\windows\system32\drivers\dxgkrnl.sys
You have Microsoft Generic AGPv3.0 Filter for K8 Processor Platforms and I have Microsoft Generic AGPv3.0 Filter for K8 Processor Platforms
You have Microsoft Monitor Class Function Driver Service and I have Microsoft Monitor Class Function Driver Service
You have had a number of problems with SWX hanging and I have not.
There is not a lot of commonality between our systems. That rules out motherboards, chipsets and the configuration of the OS and other installed software. Hard to believe the network card is causing this problem.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Here is what my screen looked like in a bad state and then in the good state after I jiggled the vertical sidebar of the tree area.
And by the way, at this moment I have a Quadro 4000 card in, but I have had the same issue with other cards.
WT
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Here is a video of it happening, if that helps at all...shrug.
I can get it to happen very consistantly. I just open several files and maximize one...then close it and continue getting to the next window by closing the active window...all the rest of the windows come up with the glitch.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John Sweeney
Jun 23, 2011 11:30 PM
Hi Doug,
Your video was helpful. I can now reproduce the problem consistently. The scenario I've found is essentially the same as Doug's and is related to closing a document and activating a second document which has been in a non-maximized state. Here are the steps I found to reproduce it... if anyone has others, please let us know and we'll try to come up with a generic fix that will hopefully resolve all of these x64 messaging issues:
1. Open two files.
2. Un-maximize the documents and drag the window edges to make the windows small (or use Window-Cascade)
3. Restore the document so it is now maximized.
4. Close the active document and the lower document will be activated. Unfortunately, the height of the tree in the newly activated document doesn't get updated. We still see the tree height as if the document window was non-maximized.
As shown in Doug's video, the issue would be much more prevalent for those of you who open multiple files at once in the File-Open dialog because of the "auto-cascade" action that takes place once all the files are loaded. Likewise, if you tend to work on and off between maximized and non-maximized document states you would see the issue if your non-maximized windows are not as tall as your maximized document.
Thanks for everyone's input on this. We'll get this fixed as soon as possible. For the time being, if you drag the FeatureMgr window edge to make it wider or narrower by a few pixels it will fix the tree height.
Best Regards,
John
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John,
That is not quite the scenario that I have or the others but it seems related. Are you doing this on your laptop that couldn't produce the problems we had?
Simply opening a part from an assembly and then tiling the screen horizontally and then maximizing one of the documents causes the problem.
The scenario we are seeing involves horizontal tiling.
Each part that is opened from the screen is maximized until the horizontal tiling takes place. Vertical tiling will not produce the problem. So it is a somewhat similar work flow.
BTW, I run 2009 and I was playing with it this morning and noticed that even there XP 64 SP2 that there is some quirkiness to the Feature Manager though not quite what is being seen in W7 64 and SW2011.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John Sweeney
Sep 22, 2011 9:28 AM
Hi Paul,
The steps you describe would be the same issue. The action of tiling horizontally is setting the non-maximized window height to something small which is the same idea as Doug's automatic cascade and as my step #2.
One note that might help make things more clear.... only the active documet is actually in a maximized state. In other words, when you have a part, drawing or assemlby document maximized within SolidWorks, any other open files are actually in a non-maximized state. When activated, they will become the only maximized document by changing their style to WS_MAXIMIZE and resizing itself to "fit" into the maximum window area and the active doc will become non-maximized. For this issue, the act of closing a maximized document is causing a non-maximized document to become maximized. The issue is that the newly activated doc was set as a small height (when is was non-maximized) and the tree window isn't getting the message to resize himself when the active doc is closed. This is all supposed to happen automatically... when a window resizes its children should resize too.. (see my explanation at: ).
Yes, this is on my laptop. I would imagine that all x64 machines will be able to reproduce the problem, but since this is a "messaging issue", which can be a bit dicey, I won't bet the farm on it.
Best Regards,
John
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
Appreciate your patience with us.
Now that you have the fish on the hook will you be reeling it in in the way of an SPR? Went the VAR route and haven't had much joy even after a trip to SWX with the RX file.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John Sweeney
Jun 24, 2011 7:50 AM
Not a problem. Helping everyone understand it will help you avoid it and, perhaps, think of other scenarios to help us fix it.
I'll pass along the SPR number shortly.
Thanks,
John
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John Sweeney
Jun 28, 2011 11:56 AM
Hi Guys,
This has been given SPR 613114.
Thanks,
John
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
I know this is a nearly year old thread but I also have this issue. Previously, I was on SWX 2010 with WinXP 64bit. Had the issue all the time. Fix was to resize the feature tree. I just upgraded to SWX 2012 and Win7 64bit about 2 weeks ago. I still see this issue. Fix is still to resize the feature tree. Just FYI, since I see many people mentioning it specifically for Win7. These kinds of glitches seem to never go away with SWX.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
The machine I found this issue on still exhibits it. I recently upgraded SW to 2012 SP2 and there was some sort of notice about an SPR being fixed that I think was supposed to be this issue. However, his machine still exhibits the problem, though perhaps not as badly now. It is aggravating if your workflow includes having multiple documents being opened and closed.
BTW, I take it you are a fan of CBM. What do you have, Amiga, C-64, V-20?
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
C64 and C128
Funny, these kinds of glitches are just "accepted" around here. I think more users probably get them but ignore them as if they aren't there. Pressing the F9 key to hide/unhide the feature tree seems to be the quickest way to "fix" this. Over the years, I have learned how to deal with graphic glitches. If a glitch was fixed from one release, new glitches seem to popup. The first thing my VAR insist on doing is using the recommended driver on SolidWorks site, but that doesn't always solve the issue. Sometimes it makes things worse, other times "non-certified" drivers fix the problem. I know SolidWorks is a very complicated piece of software, its amazing it does what it does so well. It would be nice to have bug free software though, one can dream.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
As I recall the SPR on installation mentioned a MicroSoft issue.
The VAR was involved with us and even supplied/loaned a high end graphics card. I don't think it is a driver issue, but rather something buried deep in the OS window handling system.
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John Sweeney
Apr 24, 2012 5:21 PM
Hi Paul,
We've fixed pieces of this issue over the years, but the fundamental, underlying issue still exists in SW2012. We have rearchitected the messaging for these windows in SW2013 so it avoids the x64 limitation on nested windows. So, the issue is resolved in SW2013 and we are debating now the risk vs. benefit of backporting these changes into SW2012...
We'll keep you guys posted....
Thanks,
John
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Re: Feature Tree Glitch
John Sweeney
Nov 7, 2012 1:34 PM
Hi Guys,
Sorry for the late reply! SPR 613114 has been fixed in SW2012 SP4 and later. We did not backport the full re-architecture which was done in SW2013, however, we backported the safest pieces to SW2012 SP4 so I believe the majority of these FeatureMgr repaint/resize issues will be fixed.
Please post back if your issues have been resolved and certainly if you are still seeing any problems in 2012 SP4 or later.
Best Regards,
John
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