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How do you handle different sheet metal states?

Question asked by Frank Ruepp

on Apr 4, 2011
Latest reply on Jul 10, 2012 by Bernie Daraz

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Hi 'Sheet Metal Professionals',

Recently I was involved in an interesting discussion. We had been talking about sheet metal components, which states (like bended and flattened; and obviously some more) are important and how those different states should be handled. As you can imagine there had been different opinions and now I am really curious about your opinion on this.

So, I have some questions for you and I am hoping to get your feedback:

I am wondering how you handle the different states of sheet metal. I.e. a sheet metal component has at least two specific states: The folded part and the flattened part as well.

But do you have any other states that are important for you? I.e. do you have a ‘post-bended’ state (that shows the part in a manufactured state; additional holes that are added after the bend operation, milled areas that are applied after the part has been bended)? Any other states that you have to be cover with SolidWorks (minimum blank size as a physical state? Or something else that is important to you?)

How and when do you decide which feature has to go into which state?

How do you handle those states in conjunction with PDM? Do you have different identity numbers or are all states the same item?

It would be great if you could share your best practice with me and let me know how you handle sheet metal components. In addition, I would really appreciate if you have some nice models that show / explain your practice.

Thank you in advance for your feedback.

Kind Regards

Frank

Product Definition Team

Mario Van Wiechen Apr 4, 2011 12:58 PM

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We find Solidworks very good now for what we do with our sheetmetal.

Do not use PDM, but the part stays the same number while in manufacturing. Sometimes use a sub number is it becomes an assembly or if postprocessing is done ie. plating, painting powdercoat etc.

We issue full processs drawing to our floor people in that we use configurations to break down the part bend by bend so the operators see the part go thru its progression from flat to bent (bended) and can check the dimensions fully at each stage.

I have attached a fairly typical file for us, the only thing is creating a separate assembly file so we can show weld nuts and CD studs etc. I am using 2009 and the newer versoions may have already a better way of handling that issue. Not the last sheet in the drw file has a BOM for the operator to use.

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Mario Van Wiechen Apr 4, 2011 12:58 PM
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We find Solidworks very good now for what we do with our sheetmetal.
Do not use PDM, but the part stays the same number while in manufacturing. Sometimes use a sub number is it becomes an assembly or if postprocessing is done ie. plating, painting powdercoat etc.
We issue full processs drawing to our floor people in that we use configurations to break down the part bend by bend so the operators see the part go thru its progression from flat to bent (bended) and can check the dimensions fully at each stage.
I have attached a fairly typical file for us, the only thing is creating a separate assembly file so we can show weld nuts and CD studs etc. I am using 2009 and the newer versoions may have already a better way of handling that issue. Not the last sheet in the drw file has a BOM for the operator to use.
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- Frank Ruepp @ Mario Van Wiechen on Apr 6, 2011 10:57 AM
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  Hi Mario,
  
  thanks a lot for the feedback and for the components. It is interesting to see that you have individual configurations for every bend. If you could have all the bends in a list, would be helpful to you? Perhaps you wouldn't need those configurations anymore because the number of the bend would be listed with the bend information?
  
  Are there any other opinions or workflows out there?
  
  Regards
  Frank
  Product Definition Team
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  - Desiree Villeneuve @ Frank Ruepp on Apr 6, 2011 11:44 AM
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    It's nice to see that SW is attempting to be more in tune with their SW users. I applaud that kind of thinking.
    
    With regards to your questions, for the most part SW seems to handle Sheet metal parts well. The biggest issues that I come across are the fact that in the drawing, the the flattened part is not flattened (so you have to go back to the part and unsuppress the flat-pattern). But also more recently, I've noticed that if you start to get into multi-body sheet metal parts, that there doesn't seem to be an automized way to get the resective flat pattern of the individual parts. So far, I've had to manually create configurations and then go about un-supressing the desired part.
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  - Mario Van Wiechen @ Frank Ruepp on Apr 6, 2011 3:55 PM
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    Quote
    
    Frank wrote (we need a quote button on this forum too )
    
    It is interesting to see that you have individual configurations for every bend. If you could have all the bends in a list, would be helpful to you? Perhaps you wouldn't need those configurations anymore because the number of the bend would be listed with the bend information?
    
    End Quote
    
    WE do all the configurations so the operator has all the dimensions for each phase of the parts. If you look at the progression in the drw file you will see we measure more than just the bend, gives us advance warning of radius mistakes and K factor screwups.
    The " Flat Pattern" at the bottom of the feature tree in a sheet metal part does list the bends and they can be suppressed or activated in configurations but it gets to be a pain with odd flat patterns coming into the drw sheets.
    
    An automatic "design table" or equivalent where the bends could be turned on and off in a view would be nice but may be a lot to ask for. GRIN
    
    I have attached another file set that gets even more deeply into configurations, the small tabs get bend to 157ish degress which we cannot do with normal tooling so we go to 135 and flatten afterwards
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    2737 Proc#Rev -#FP256-101721-01#End Stop#MS-050.SLDDRW.zip927.1 KB
    2737#Rev -#FP256-101721-01#End Stop#MS-050.SLDPRT.zip2.0 MB
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    - Kelvin Lamport @ Mario Van Wiechen on Apr 12, 2011 3:21 PM
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      Mario Van Wiechen wrote:
      
      Quote
      
      Frank wrote (we need a quote button on this forum too )
      
      The quote function was introduced with the new forum format.
      
      Either click the Quote icon to capture everything, or cut and paste the required portion, highlight it, and then click the Quote icon.
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      - Mario Van Wiechen @ Kelvin Lamport on Apr 12, 2011 3:29 PM
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        Kelvin Lamport wrote:
        
        Mario Van Wiechen wrote:
        
        Quote
        
        Frank wrote (we need a quote button on this forum too )
        
        The quote function was introduced with the new forum format.
        
        Either click the Quote icon to capture everything, or cut and paste the required portion, highlight it, and then click the Quote icon.
        Cool, not adventerous I guess, never clicked on many of the icons, that's what you get with a newb!!!!
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Wayne Tiffany Apr 7, 2011 9:14 AM
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Although we don't do this kind of sheet metal work here, I can think of a neat solution. How about some method whereby the user could easily show each step of a progressive die trip. A simple, automatic way to create a config for each station, and then also an easy, automatic button that would produce a video showing the part as it progresses through the die setup. The video would be used for presentation of the design to the customer.

And then that same auto button would also allow the production of a video that could show the steps to making a sheet metal part on a brake press. Start with this bend, rotate the part, make this bend, etc.

How's that for a challenge? :-)

WT
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- Frank Ruepp @ Wayne Tiffany on Apr 8, 2011 7:54 AM
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  Hi Wayne,
  
  yes, this sounds like a nice solution and I can imagine that it is something that looks good for presentation purpose. But I am wondering if the workshop will follow my bend order or if they make it their own way because their manufacturing knowledge exceeds my knowledge?
  Perhaps something that is good for another post :).
  
  Ok, I have collected these sheet metal component states so far:
  1. Sheet metal blank
  2. Flat pattern
  3. Individual bend steps
  4. Completely bended part
  5. Post-bended state (like milling, drilling operations after the part has been bended)
  6. Coatings applied after the part has been manufactured
  And I suppose that these states are kept in configurations?
  
  Apart from these, any other states that I left out?
  
  Thanks
  Frank
  Product Definition Team
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  - Samu Niveri @ Frank Ruepp on Apr 8, 2011 12:06 PM
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    Sorry about attacking on this thread but I did not find any better thread about SW asking about sheet-metals. What I would like to see with sheet metals is:
    
    Same kind of functionality as weldments = you can select a teplate for a body. This would make SolidWorks handle the steel stuff always similar and now when the sheet-metals also are as cutlist items this could be a real benefit for multibody parts. So in directly speaking: allow users to make their templates for sheetmetals similar as weldment profiles. Just a empty part that contains proper K-Factor, thickness and properties for a body. If user has to chooce different thickess it could be as simple as changing weldment profile. Also they could write properties to templates (item codes needed for purchacing the steels etc.), currently the sheet-metal cutlist stuff is a complete mess. Hope you understand what I was after on this one.
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  - Gerald Davis @ Frank Ruepp on Apr 13, 2011 1:06 PM
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    Frank -
    I frequently will suppress forming tool features in my "flat" configuration and replace them with unsuppressed pilot holes (or something equivalent for locating the feature).
    
    As support for the idea you've proposed, there have been times when I've sat with press brake operators at my elbow while running SW and demonstrated the bend sequence that I was dreaming of. Having a convenient tool for playing "what-if" with the bend sequence and visualizing the results would be something I'd use a lot. The current rigmarole of setting up configurations and various states of suppression for features/bends is a lot of overhead - I only do it when there's significant demand for the effort.
    
    The ultimate in cool would be a Motion Study Bender Whiz that creates a movie of the part going through the bending process on its own - sort of like the Exploding or Spinning Whizies but all it does is swing the bends from flat to folded (and versa vice) using the specified bend sequence.
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    - Samu Niveri @ Gerald Davis on Apr 13, 2011 2:04 PM
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      Gerald Davis wrote:
      
      The ultimate in cool would be a Motion Study Bender Whiz that creates a movie of the part going through the bending process on its own - sort of like the Exploding or Spinning Whizies but all it does is swing the bends from flat to folded (and versa vice) using the specified bend sequence.
      
      This could be easy to do with macro, great idea by the way!
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      - Gerald Davis @ Samu Niveri on Apr 14, 2011 1:52 PM
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        "...easy with a macro..."
        
        I am proposing "realistic" unfolding vs. transitioning snap shots between states.
        
        I'm pretty weak on the macro skill set, but I'm skeptical about the general convenience of a macro once it is written and ready to use.
        
        Each bend angle would have to be dimensioned (eliminating vertical or horizontal relationships). That's a rather anti-intuitive modeling technique for me.
        
        If I had to create a motion study of an unfolding part, I'd probably end up using planes mated at angles in a master assembly and bend features sketch related to those planes. The motion study would use the angle mates to swing the fold. The hassle is when bend angles reach 180°. Sketch elements sometimes get really cranky; 179.99° is my favorite cheat. Each individual step is "easy", but the process wouldn't be quick.
        
        I've been known to use the convert-to-sheet metal tool. Bend angles resulting from that technique might be challenging for a macro to fish out.
        
        I'd be much happier to have Frank code up all the magic so I can just click on the DMJ button.
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        Samu Niveri @ Gerald Davis on Apr 14, 2011 4:00 PM
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        Gerald Davis wrote:
        
        I am proposing "realistic" unfolding vs. transitioning snap shots between states.
        
        Motional transitions (degree per degree) would be too much for basic macro(atleast for a macro that is cooked up in few hours), however otherwise this could be done. So snapshots for each bend in user defined order could be done pretty easily even you use convert to sheet metal-tool.
        
        Gerald Davis wrote:
        
        I'd be much happier to have Frank code up all the magic so I can just click on the DMJ button.
        
        Yep, I would be too.
        
        EDIT: Just a few minutes example without user selections, but specified order and using model made with "convert to sheet-metal": http://www.spn-technologies.fi/swf/FlatStepper.htm
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  - Mark Larson @ Frank Ruepp on Apr 14, 2011 2:13 PM
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    some may argue it becomes an assembly, but here are three:
    
    Clinch nuts, standoffs, and similar added to the sheet metal piece
    any welding, including adding another piece of metal
    adding rivets or similar, along with another piece of metal
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    - Mario Van Wiechen @ Mark Larson on Apr 15, 2011 8:36 AM
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      Mark Larson wrote:
      
      some may argue it becomes an assembly, but here are three:
      
      Clinch nuts, standoffs, and similar added to the sheet metal piece
      any welding, including adding another piece of metal
      adding rivets or similar, along with another piece of metal
      Clinch nuts and other hardware I agree with
      Welding if it eg. closes up a seam on the part
      Separate parts I would not use, they have to go thru my shop separately but that is IMHO
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Frank Ruepp Apr 15, 2011 2:19 PM
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Thanks a lot to all of you who contributed to this thread!

It is good to get the 'unfiltered' feedback directly from the users. It helps us (me) a lot and gives us a better understanding of your practices and requirements.

I reallly appreciate your time and efforts.

Regards
Frank
Product Definition Team
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Richard Pitts Apr 18, 2011 4:32 PM
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Frank,

SolidWorks handles our sheetmetal needs very well. We use two states normally which are flat and formed. There is only a rare occasion when we will need to add another state, here is why and how we solve the problems:

Sometime our brake back stop must align against an already bent flange. To get the correct dimension from the bent flange to the center of the unbent line we must have a configuration with the appropriate bends suppressed / unsupporessed. Because of the accumulation of errors this causes we try to avoid this situation as often as possible. In this case the part numbers of all the configurations are the same, and the revision control is at the drawing level where the one drawing shows all the various configurations.

Occasionally we will want to make a part to long due to shrinkage during welding. So we will make a part with a formed and flat pattern like normal where this part is 'to long.' We will then make a derrived configuration with the correct length and call the configuration *Name*-AsWelded. This allosw us to make a welding print with the model as we want the welded part, and also allows us to add length to allow for the weld shrinkage. In this case the part numbers of all the configurations are the same, and the revision control is at the drawing level where the one drawing shows the formed and flat configurations. The as welded configuration is used only in the welding drawing and is revision controled by the welding drawing.

These are the rare differences to the normal flat and formed configurations. We do have issues, but that is more with functionality than with states. Like in the case of metal spinning.

Richard
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Bernie Daraz Jul 10, 2012 2:11 PM
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Hey guys!

Infrequently I need to show individual bend states and creating it as an AVI is a pain. I just screenshot the state of the part with the bends individually and collectively suppressed as required and drop those picture files into a new folder. Then I use Windows Explorer "Picture Tasks" and "View as a slide show". You can pause and change "states" with the VCR style controls at your leisure.

I consider it my own "Idiots GIF maker". Hope this helps!
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