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Why does solidworks forget where my elbow is located?

Question asked by 1-M4OM40 on Apr 22, 2010
Latest reply on Oct 20, 2010 by MIRATecnologia Projectes

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So here's my latest problem, and its possibly a stem of problems with a "route" cause, pardon my pun.

All our routing parts are in the design library. Lately, when I want to "start by drag/drop" it is unresponsive, that is to say, i can drag a routing component onto the screen, but nothing happens. It doesn't prompt me to choose pipe and elbows anymore, and doesn't automatically make stubs to build onto. Instead, it is treated as a regular part in an assembly. If i try to start a route from it after, i can make a route, but the component I initially dropped onto the screen doesn't become a component within the route assembly.

Then, the problems continue, If i save that assembly, and try to re-open it, the original part loses its location and I have to browse and relocate it. Parts within the route assembly do not need to be relocated.

How do i get Route on drag/drop to work again?

Why would solidworks forget the location of a part?

What is a good reliable set of routing options/selections in tools/option?

Thanks

Doug

Andy Hughes Apr 29, 2010 10:26 AM

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No, I mean quite the opposite. You must have only one elbow with any given names - with multi-configs etc. As we have setup in the normal routing library. You can then use these in any number of different assemblies.

I think yo need to get some help from your VAR, it sounds like there is a problem with your paths or other settings.

Andy

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Peter De Vlieger Apr 23, 2010 6:16 AM
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Does that happen when you drag&drop a flange or a T ?

If not, what kind of component are you trying to use as a start ?
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1-M4OM40 @ Peter De Vlieger on Apr 23, 2010 8:06 AM
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This is happening with elbows. I just tested a flange, it begins a route upon dropping. I just tested a tee, it also begins a route upon dropping.

I have the options set at start route on drag/drop so it should start a route from elbows right?
Could there be something wrong with my elbows and other parts that would prevent it from beginning a route?

Thanks
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Peter De Vlieger @ 1-M4OM40 on Apr 23, 2010 8:31 AM
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May I suggest that you reread the following page in the help file :
http://help.solidworks.com/2010/english/SolidWorks/sldpiping/sldpiping/General_Procedure_for_Pipes_and_Tubes.htm

As you'll see they mention that you have to insert an end fitting into the asm to begin the route.

Personally I'm not that surprised that one can't use an elbow as a starting fitting, I'm actual more surprised that one can use a T as a fitting to start from.
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1-M4OM40 @ Peter De Vlieger on Apr 23, 2010 8:37 AM
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What defines a part as an end fitting? All our routing parts are made by us, where do you choose whether the part is an end fitting or not?

Thanks
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Peter De Vlieger @ 1-M4OM40 on Apr 23, 2010 8:51 AM
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I would think that it has to do with the fact if a part has a CP as well as a RP point.
As far as I gather CP defines the start (or a breakpoint) in a route and a RP define a point where the route has to go through.

If there isn't an RoutePoint then I would think that the route only knows it should start at the CP but doesn't know where to go to to continue (= a line can be defined in space by two points). In the case of the elbows there are 2 CP's but no RP there for the route has two possible starts but still has no RoutePoint to pass through and therefor is without direction.

Keep in mind that an elbow has an ElbowArc definition and therefor doesn't normally have an RP point, the reason being that it doesn't need on.

(if I'm wrong then I would love to hear what I got wrong)
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1-M4OM40 @ Peter De Vlieger on Apr 23, 2010 9:00 AM
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This is getting interesting.
My tees and elbows both have Rpoints, yet the tee behaves like a starting point, and my elbows do not. Checking up on my parts, all my parts have Rpoints. Is it better practice to avoid having Rpoints on components that arent termination parts?

Also, under file> Properties>Configuration Specific, i noticed a property name called RoutingTerminalBlockComponent, Type: Yes or No, and you choose yes or no. Do you know what this is for? Could it have an effect?

I cant seem to pin down the actual reason some parts behave as starting points and others do not, because it seems all our parts do in fact have Rpoints.
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Peter De Vlieger @ 1-M4OM40 on Apr 23, 2010 9:47 AM
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Okay.... I must admit that I'm now out of ideas and out of my depth. Best bet now is wait and see if Any Hughes notices the thread and chimes in.

I just saw that in the manual elbows are advised to have an RP, although the elbows we've been using don't have one and we have based our elbows on existing ones in the library that came with SW.

The best bet for making any piping part is to use the routing wizard but then again... the routing wizard doesn't help at all for elbows.

PS: any particular reason you want to start from an elbow ?
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1-M4OM40 @ Peter De Vlieger on Apr 23, 2010 10:02 AM
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There's no particular reason for starting with an elbow, however I'm in the process of basically building a library of parts, and I was unaware that solidworks could differentiate between a "route starting" part and a "route continuing" part. Now that I know theres a difference, i really would like to know how to set each part to behave the way it should.

Hopefully someone else chimes in about when to use Rpoints and the other issue i just explained.

Thanks for your help though
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Peter De Vlieger @ 1-M4OM40 on Apr 23, 2010 10:36 AM
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I wish I could have been an actual help. It more sounds as if I increased the amount of questions instead of lessen them.

Concerning : "...i really would like to know how to set each part to behave the way it should..."

You, me and the rest of the users would all love that.

Unfortunately it seems that the rules and possibilities governing the setup of piping parts seems to be solely on a need to know bases and us users aren't deemed to qualify for the knowledge except for the basic stuff in the manual and whatever tidbit that you can dig up online. If this sounds harsh then perhaps someone will actual bring out an indepth manual of how, what and where and when certain things apply, are possible or are needed.
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1-M4OM40 @ Peter De Vlieger on Apr 23, 2010 10:42 AM
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My sentiments exactly.
From what Im gathering after 7 months working with routing, its unpredictable, impossible to learn, and impossible to keep it working the same way on a day to day basis...

Every single day, i run into new problems, and unfortunately in the real world we dont have time to dink around, we need to get designs done, so we hack it together with 35 error messages, print it off, and move foreward to the next assembly. Nobody seems to be able to actually Master this routing thing, which is a pity.

Im going to try to get some more answers out of our V.A.R. because all our company does is piping... so we really really really need this to work flawlessly or else ditch the software completely as it is counterproductive and expensive and has been for 5 years.

Maybe the bigwigs will read this and make some drastic improvments to the software?
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Andy Hughes @ 1-M4OM40 on Apr 29, 2010 5:21 AM
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Let me start with a few basics.

The primary function of the RPoint is to locate the fitting. A fitting is positioned by aligning the RPoint with its sketch point, so if the sketch changes and the point moves the fitting will follow. This alignment is the main function of the RPoint.

So, now we have set its location we need to also set its orientation. A fitting has a CPoint to represent each of its ports. The fitting is rotated so that one of its CPoints lies on one of the sketch lines emanating from the above sketch point. It is important therefore that the sketch lines are created an constrained such that the CPoints can be aligned with them - so for a standard tee the main branch lines are collinear with the branch line being perpendicular. It is also important therefore that when the CPoints are placed in the fitting they are correctly located relative to the RPoint.

Electrical connectors typically drive the route – they locate the end of the route, rather than being located by it. We call this their driving/driven state. As they are not located by the route, they don’t need a RPoint so we made the RPoint optional for an end fitting. – both for piping and electrical to keep it consistent. So, a piping flange does not need any CPoint, but you can use one if you prefer.

Now to your elbow. A normal elbow is located on the sketch arc/fillet, so it doesn’t need a RPoint. This is true if it is the elbow used in the route properties and thus added automatically by the application. However, in some cases you want to use drag/drop to add an elbow. In this case you aren’t dropping it onto a fillet, you are dropping it onto a point. So, it needs to have a RPoint to locate it. Typically this will be coincident with one of the CPoints, but it can also be at the virtual intersection point – it depends on the drag/drop behavior you require.

So, you only need a RPoint in an elbow if you want to add it by drag/drop.

Back to flanges: You don’t need an axis of rotation. It was added for an earlier release where it was required but is now effectively obsolete for fitiings, though still used for rotation of clips/hangers.

Summary:

Elbows: 2 CPoints, RPoint is optional, requires the appropriate ElbowArc sketch and required dimensions etc.
Flange: 1 CPoint, RPoint is optional, Vertical axis is optional– no other specific requirements.

A start component is a flange or any component with 1RPoint and any number of CPoints. Please also note the RouteOnDrop property added in 2010 that determines whether or not the CPoints get added to the route on drop.

Hopefully that answers your questions regarding what constitutes a starting component.

Cheers

Andy
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Andy Hughes Apr 29, 2010 5:30 AM
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Please also see my earlier answer regarding the modeling of components.

Forgetting your elbow isn't a known issue.

Here are some things to check.

You MUST have only one copy of each library part. avoid copying files to different locations - if you must copy them rename them.

Make sure you have one library folder location and keep all library parts under that folder - typically design library/routing.

Check all of the paths under file locations, make sure they are correct and not duplicated.

If you are using the above default location for your library, goto tools, options, routing, file locations. Check the paths are correct there. Click on Load defaults if you are using the normal default location and this will set up all of the paths for you - but only if you are using the default locations. EG, if you are using 2010 this will point to the 2010 libraries. If you have library arts stored under 2009 libraty location you'll need to point back to this location or copy those parts to the 2010 location.

If this doesn't work you should ask your VAR for help.

Cheers

Andy
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1-M4OM40 @ Andy Hughes on Apr 29, 2010 10:17 AM
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You mean if i want to use three elbows, i need to save them all separately, and cant use the same one three times? "You MUST have only one copy of each library part."

When it asks to browse to the new file, if i hit cancel instead, it just finds the library part location and everything reloads. Why does it prompt me in the first place if it knows where it is?
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Andy Hughes @ 1-M4OM40 on Apr 29, 2010 10:26 AM
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No, I mean quite the opposite. You must have only one elbow with any given names - with multi-configs etc. As we have setup in the normal routing library. You can then use these in any number of different assemblies.

I think yo need to get some help from your VAR, it sounds like there is a problem with your paths or other settings.

Andy
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1-M4OM40 @ Andy Hughes on May 4, 2010 8:24 AM
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I see, thanks!
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Charles Culp May 4, 2010 9:09 AM
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Look half the distance between your wrist and your shoulder.
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1-M4OM40 @ Charles Culp on May 4, 2010 9:09 AM
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ha.. sigh
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Deepak Gupta @ 1-M4OM40 on May 4, 2010 10:04 AM
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So you finally find your elbow..
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1-M4OM40 @ Deepak Gupta on May 4, 2010 10:06 AM
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The one on my arm, yes, but solidworks still forgets where to find my piping elbows after I close and open assemblies. I guess its just a terrible bug built into stupidworks. Ill work around it.
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David Paulson @ Andy Hughes on May 4, 2010 7:26 PM
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Andy,

Your post turned on a few lights for me. Specifically, on the subject of elbows, I have believed since the inception of "Piping" that an elbow had to be created on a fillet of the same radius as the elbow you want to use. Because my Routes can have a number of pipe diameters, a few different pipe materials and lots of fittings, configuring all of the fillets in the 3D sketch can be tedious. I had always dreamed of an enhancement to Routing that would let me drag and drop elbows.

I have tried it before, and it always failed, with the stock elbows and my derived elbows (because they were based upon the stock elbows). SW stock elbows (SW2009) do include a RP, but it is always coincident with CP2. This may work if the elbow is at the end of a run, but really does not allow drag and drop functionality on two sketch lines. So, if I just edit my elbows to relocate the RP to the interesection of the pipe Axes, everything should work drag and drop. Very Cooooooool.......................
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Philip Lewis @ 1-M4OM40 on May 6, 2010 2:22 PM
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I believe we had someone here have a similar problem. Check to see if the location (folder) of the elbow listed in the route properties of the assembly your working in is in the same place as the folder specified as your routing library in the "tools-options-routing file locations" settings.
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1-M4OM40 @ Philip Lewis on May 6, 2010 3:00 PM
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I checked what you describe.
Ive got it set up correctly as you describe there. The routing library is simply set as the design library (where all our routing parts are) and the elbow is in the design library.

Ironically, it sometimes remembers and sometimes forgets, its completely random. Also, when it does prompt me to browse for the elbow, if i simply hit cancel, it goes and finds it from the design library anyways! totally weird :/ i thank you for your help however!
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MIRATecnologia Projectes Oct 19, 2010 1:22 PM
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We've got the same elbow problem over here, but I must say that we don't have just one elbow in the library folder: we have a couple. And we need to have a couple of them because we work by pipespec.

Each pipespec has 1 elbow part that is saved in the same library folder. We're working with a couple of people doing piping at the same time and we cannot have the all the configurations in just one part because it would simply cost too much errors not being "idiotproof". When I'm making a pipeline according 1 pipe spec, than for each diameter I only have one option; the drafter can't make a mistake adding an elbow into the 3D that does not have the correct Schedule number for example. That is, if he or she has made the correct reference at the beginning of the route, where to refer to a file in your routing library.

People here are starting to get quiet tired of having a perfectly good assembly with all the correct parts in it, and suddenly after editing a route, the message pops up that SW cannot find the correct elbow (for an elbow that has been there for at least half a year). One trick we found that helps is to open in another window the correct elbow part and activating the correct configuration before editing a route. Dunno why, but it seems to help sometimes.

Another point where I disagree is that of a flange that must have only one connecting point. We have added two connecting points to our flanges so that you can continue with the route after the flange and the assembly does not have to stop there. That way, you can just pop it into a pipeline without a problem. If we would have to make subassemblies for every time we have a set of flanges in a pipeline, we would end up with even bigger and complicated assy's and that would get us nowhere.
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Andy Hughes @ MIRATecnologia Projectes on Oct 20, 2010 7:09 AM
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Hi Guys,

If opening the correct elbow first fixes the problem itr is almost certainly a problem with your paths settings. Make sure that the elbow you use is in the routiong folder and that the routing folder appears in the design library. Also check the paths you have set in tools->options->File Locations. There are a lot of paths here so it's difficult to advise you how to set them up. Talk to your reseller if you have problems. One possibility is to make sure that your routing folder is added under the design library paths.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Andy
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MIRATecnologia Projectes @ Andy Hughes on Oct 20, 2010 12:48 PM
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Hi Andy,

We know and control the matter of all the file locations quiet well, that shouldn't be the problem. In all possible fields we refer to the correct file paths. Actually, I can only think of three file paths that we can fill in (see attached screenshot) for piping. We're not using tubing nor electrical wiring, just piping.
Is there any other path I should know of that's important for the elbows? What I also can add is that in our folder "piping" we have no subfolders; all elbow and pipefiles are stored here in the same folder. (which are more than 2 files because for each pipespec we use, we have one elbow and one pipe file).

And should this realy be the problem, why does SW function correctly during a long time and all of a sudden an elbow pops out that never gave problems before (with the message of cannot find the correct elbow)?
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- routing paths 2.jpg178.0 KB
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Why does solidworks forget where my elbow is located?

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