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SP 4.0 Adds Decal Support to PV360!

Question asked by Rob Rodríguez on Jun 11, 2009
Latest reply on Jun 24, 2009 by Corey Wallace

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If you use PV360 and need decals (who doesn't) you'll want to check out SP 4.0 (SP 4.0 EV was released yesterday).

Here is a video

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Paul McCrorey Jun 11, 2009 1:37 PM
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Nice work Rob....thanks for the info...

Quick question - if you changed the 'luminosity setting' or if you put 'area light' as the material, would it light up more then?
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Rob Rodríguez @ Paul McCrorey on Jun 11, 2009 1:52 PM
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I didn't have real good luck with doing that. When I tried to use the "light" appearances it washed the decal image out and made it more difficult to see. Adjusting luminosity settings had the same effect. There may be a way to make it work?

SP 4 is a good step in the right direction.

Maybe 2010 will give us more control over the decal? Fingers crossed.
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Jeff Mowry Jun 11, 2009 2:23 PM
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So--as someone who has used Hypershot as well--and considering the new stuff they've got lately--how do they compare?
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Rob Rodríguez @ Jeff Mowry on Jun 11, 2009 2:33 PM
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As far as decals HyperShot is in the lead. HyperShot gives you mapping controls in side of HyperShot, lets you span decals across multiple faces of geometry (even seperate parts) and gives you more control over the image properties.

Currently PV360 just reads in whatever decal info you set up in SW. Just like textural appearances, you need to do the work (mapping, etc) in SW and your manipulation abilities inside on PV360 are limted.
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1-9C36HC @ Rob Rodríguez on Jun 11, 2009 5:12 PM
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Maybe 2010 will give us more control over the decal? Fingers crossed.

Sorry Rob, we don't have anything planned to enhance this for 2010 (although there's a lot of other great stuff that you'll love. that you'll find out about soon.)

Jeff's question about "luminosity setting" it's kind of tricky and actually if what you're wanting to do is illuminate an LCD screen (like the iPhone) it can be done but the way to do it is to mimic real-life: see the image below, although this is done on 2010 I believe the same will be true for SP4. What you're looking (360 rendering) at is a sandwich of three materials: 1) the backlight (area light appearance on body A furtherest most away) 2) a clear glass appearance with a decal on its top surface (and using underlying material setting body B.) 3) third and top piece is a piece of smoke glass. So as you can see it works pretty well but if you try to place a decal directly on a luminous appearance, it won't work. Also, a "constant" illumination in PV also does not work.

The rendering below is done with the "black" environment (i.e. no contributing light source) so this is a true test.

I'm curious about your comments about decal manipulation. Isn't decal application and mapping in SW far superior to HS? If so, why is it so important that you have this same manipulation in PV? Decals are part of the design and placing them appropiately in SW seems correct, no?
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Rob Rodríguez @ 1-9C36HC on Jun 11, 2009 5:53 PM
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I'm waiting anxiously for beta!

The image looks good Mark. I hadn't tried the sandwich technique but obviously it works. I haven't had a lot of time to play with decals in PV360. I made the video and wanted to get the word out that PV360 now had decal support since I think lots of people have been waiting/wanting this. It's nice to have it

Isn't decal application and mapping in SW far superior to HS?

I would say the decal ability in PW/SW is much more user friendly than HyperShot. The HyperShot UI reminds me of the way decals used to work in PW before the drag and drop functionality. HyperShot does have some nice tech features for decals (able to span multiple parts and will automatically read an alpha channel).

Jeff asked about comparing PV360 to HS though and really PV360 only has the ability to read the decal from SW/PW. It's limited on decal manipulation tools compared to HS.

Decals are part of the design and placing them appropiately in SW seems correct, no?

I guess I would argue no. I have the same feelings here as I have had on the textural appearances. Personally I'd like to see everything work in one location. This means one of two things for me.

PV360 is fully integrated into the SW window and I can work in PV360 with full control over materials and decals. Mapping, scaling, position, etc. Basically the same controls we have now using PW.

or

PV360 is a stand alone app like it is currently and has all the controls required to apply and manipulate appearances and decals. Mapping, scaling, position, etc. Basically the same controls we have now using PW.

Here's an example why. You open your SW file in PV360 and set up your rendering. Your model is a piece of furniture and you create one rendering showing a painted finish. Now you want to show the same model with some natural wood grain finish. You can apply the wood appearance in PV360 but you don't have the ability to map or postion it correctly (you basically get what it gives). Since wood grain is a "directional" type appearance you need this control. So to complete the rendering you have to save the file in PV360, close, open in SW, apply the wood appearance so you have the controls you need, save the SW file, close, re-open in PV360, hope the mapping translated correctly and then render. Decals now work in the same manner except you don't have the ability to apply them in PV360 like you do appearances.

In your i-phone example, what if you wanted to show the screen in landscape mode rather than portrait (that's a nifty i-phone sales point). You can't rotate the decal in PV360. You have to go back to SW and make the change.

For me this is a workflow interuption.

I really don't care if PV360 is stand alone or integrated into the SW window I just want it to have all the controls I need in one location.

All that said, I'm glad SW is focusing resources on PV360 and can't wait to give 2010 a go.
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Corey Wallace @ Rob Rodríguez on Jun 11, 2009 6:01 PM
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Rob Rodriguez wrote:

PV360 is fully integrated into the SW window and I can work in PV360 with full control over materials and decals. Mapping, scaling, position, etc. Basically the same controls we have now using PW.

or

PV360 is a stand alone app like it is currently and has all the controls required to apply and manipulate appearances and decals. Mapping, scaling, position, etc. Basically the same controls we have now using PW.

Oh god, jesus and heavenly lord above, please listen to my prayer that PV360 remains a standalone so I can work on my super cool 3D models in peace and harmony while my renders process quietly in the background. Thank you lord....and Marc Biasotti.
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Rob Rodríguez @ Corey Wallace on Jun 11, 2009 6:07 PM
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LOL. I'm laughing hysterically here!

I agree it is nice to be able to use SW and render at the same time. I bet that could be made to work either way though. PV360 is opening a seperate render processing window now so I don't see why it couldn't do the same thing if it were integrated in SW ans still let you work on your model.

I really don't care how it's done though. I just want all my controls in the same location (app).
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Corey Wallace @ Rob Rodríguez on Jun 11, 2009 6:13 PM
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I hear ya Rob, as long as I have that second window that's fine.
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Kevin Quigley Jun 11, 2009 6:56 PM
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Thanks for that Rob. I'm on the EV but have not had the time to download it yet, and won't have for a few more days!

Mark, I can see your point about doing all the prep work in SW and just doing the rendering in PV360. This takes the photography analogy really - you get your product pack to shoot, give it to the photographer and they set up the studio lighting, camera angles etc and shoot it......but of course you can do more than that in PV! Its a tough call. The argument being if you need extra control buy Modo. I think for the majority of SW users the ability to use decals is enough. But of course it is not enough for those of us that do renderings day in day out.

I'll add a scenario to Rob's to show where independent control helps.

Company makes customised machines configured to each enquiry, lots of parts etc. Pre PV360 they just issued drawings with the quote but because PV360 is so easy everybody can use it and so now marketing insist all quotes are sent out with a visual. In a situation like this you might well have a one or two guys doing the rendering and they only need to have the assembly file to use it in PV360. What can happen here (and I have seen it happen) is that for concurrent design work you might have a team working on a quote, configuring the system. They save out an assembly copy and give it to the rendering team to render as they are finalising the details. So they need the assembly and parts active. If the rendering guys need to make a change they are stuck and need to open up the SW assembly files and any linked parts - which may already be in use or being edited. If the rendering guys can independently edit the decals and applied textures (like in Hypershot) they can continue to complete the quote in tandem with the engineering team.

You could argue here that this is a case where they should buy Modo, but management are not going to authorise $1000 per Modo license when they already can do what they need inside SolidWorks.....and of course Modo is not as instantly easy to use as PV360. Which is where Hypershot wins out still. It has got the PV360 ease but allows that little bit of extra control.

I think this is the market PV360 is aimed at and this is the market it should deliver to. These companies are not going to buy Modo or anything else unless the workflow becomes an issue - which it might if they can't work on the files independently. I think that is also the dilemma for the future. If you have PV360 inside solidworks you need to come up with a way to load an assembly without all the parts and allow access to part level for changing appearances and decals etc. You need to have an assembly render mode as well as lightweight!

Finally, on the decals material thing, I really do think you need to be able to apply a material to a decal. There are times when you cannot have a decal on an underlying material. For example applying a decal to glass. Rob, maybe you can try that? I have apps that have this limitation as well and it requires horrendous workarounds (in fact this was a limitation in Hypershot until recently). Decal onto glass means the decal is transparent as well.

If you can apply materials to decals, then you open the system up to huge advances. For example you can apply a stencil decal (or single colour decal with alpha channel) and apply a metal and get a metalic label (think beer labels or cosmetics).

This kind of functionality is key to getting a great visual.
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Rob Rodríguez @ Kevin Quigley on Jun 11, 2009 7:04 PM
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Hi kevin,

There are times when you cannot have a decal on an underlying material. For example applying a decal to glass. Rob, maybe you can try that?

I actually did try this and it works as you say. The decal takes on the transparencey of the glass. You'd have to split face the decal area so you could apply a different material just where the decals lies. That's one workaround anyway. In a case where you wanted to use a decal to show some etched lettering or design on glass the split face method would require some work. Not the best option.
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Jeff Mowry Jun 11, 2009 9:26 PM
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Mark, can that image be boosted in brightness a bit, or is the light a function of the image transparency? (Using alpha channels like in TIFF or PNG files?)

It's a tough call with the integration-to-SolidWorks with PV360. Couldn't this be a toggle or option? For some work, you really want to bust out a variety of textures/images with a product, so integration would be great if the decal thing is stuck in SolidWorks. But if a high-resolution rendering can crunch in the background while other work is done in SolidWorks, that's sometimes preferred.

Optimally, of course, decal control should be available in PV360, where the influence of such decals will be most immediately seen with environmental (and rendered) factors. Getting the ability to show them at all is the first step, of course, but continued development in new releases is much more promising than stalled development. Perhaps that's a matter of priority and resources. Good to see the progress!
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1-9C36HC @ Jeff Mowry on Jun 12, 2009 1:20 PM
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Mark, can that image be boosted in brightness a bit, or is the light a function of the image transparency? (Using alpha channels like in TIFF or PNG files?)

MAB - Yes, brightness can be boosted.

It's a tough call with the integration-to-SolidWorks with PV360. Couldn't this be a toggle or option? For some work, you really want to bust out a variety of textures/images with a product, so integration would be great if the decal thing is stuck in SolidWorks. But if a high-resolution rendering can crunch in the background while other work is done in SolidWorks, that's sometimes preferred.

MAB - To Kevin, Rob and Jeff - this issue WILL be going away in the future (but can't say which way it will go yet,) but we decided that you/we needed something like 360 in 2009.
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1-9C36HC @ Kevin Quigley on Jun 12, 2009 1:24 PM
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Kevin,

I can wait for you to get to 360 beta 2010 because I think we hit on two of your biggest issues.

Mark
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Chad Schmidt Jun 12, 2009 1:39 PM
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I'm curious if they added decal support for E-drawings?
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Kevin Quigley @ 1-9C36HC on Jun 12, 2009 2:33 PM
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Mark Biasotti wrote:

Kevin,
I can wait for you to get to 360 beta 2010 because I think we hit on two of your biggest issues.
Mark

What a tease!!
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Pete Yodis @ Jeff Mowry on Jun 12, 2009 2:53 PM
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In 2009 the FEA software (comsos .... now simulation) allows a user to leave the study while the solution is being computed. The user can work in SolidWorks apart from the solution running. I would imagine if SolidWorks did this for FEA, then its coming real soon for rendering...
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1-9C36HC @ Chad Schmidt on Jun 12, 2009 3:02 PM
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Sorry Chad,

You'll just have to wait a little longer for the What's New at beta forum :-(
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Jeff Mowry Jun 12, 2009 3:22 PM
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Thanks, Mark. I'm watching eagerly.

Any news on further developments with PhotoWorks, then, or is PhotoWorks slated to be abandoned or stalled in exchange for a more powerful (soon) PV360? If abandoned, will rendered animations still be possible by using the PV360 engine? This sort of thing is actually fairly important for me.
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Paul McCrorey @ Jeff Mowry on Jun 12, 2009 4:44 PM
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Mark,

Let me chime in on the rendered animation importance as well. Currently, I am using PV360 more and more on my day to day. But I also do a fair bit of animations and losing PW and the animation capability would not be ideal.

Any thoughts or prognostications (my word for the day ) here?

BTW...I agree with Rob...it is outstanding to see where you are going with PV360 and it is great to see the development continue.

Paul
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Corey Wallace @ Paul McCrorey on Jun 12, 2009 5:00 PM
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Paul McCrorey wrote:

Mark,

Let me chime in on the rendered animation importance as well. Currently, I am using PV360 more and more on my day to day. But I also do a fair bit of animations and losing PW and the animation capability would not be ideal.

Any thoughts or prognostications (my word for the day ) here?
Paul

AND...on the subject of animation...any thoughts on making Solidworks files more friendly for nurb based animation software? I'd love to be able to do a large part of my modeling in Solidworks then import the files into a program like Maya when I need to make animations that have cloth based properties.
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Kevin Quigley @ Corey Wallace on Jun 12, 2009 5:38 PM
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Corey I've always taken the attitude that it is up to the application doing the job to build in compatibility to that providing the content. In this way you have say Hypershot or Modo reading SolidWorks files, or Cinema4D Engineering pack able to read in SolidWorks files as well. I'm not sure I can see how SolidWorks as a parasolid based modeller can help prepping for Maya (especially so given that Maya is Autodesk). Can't you import the SW data as IGES into Maya? I know a couple of Maya users who take all the CAD contant in via IGES. Alternatively buy Modo and use that as an in between application between Solidworks and Maya.
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Corey Wallace @ Kevin Quigley on Jun 12, 2009 5:50 PM
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Kevin...trust me, I know I'm being greedy, but it's worth a try. You can import IGES but you can run into problems when you start flexing/bending parts because the surfaces just aren't put together the same way as if you were to build the part from scratch in Maya. I'm just using Maya as an example. I realize I'm in a small minority that wants clothlike and bending physics....I'm sure 99% of solidworks customers who need animations only need rigid mechanic animations and I get that. It would just be ultra cool if I could export a Solidworks file and have the surface properties work better with surface based animation packages.
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Jeff Mowry @ Corey Wallace on Jun 12, 2009 6:21 PM
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Corey, you may want to look into what T-Splines is doing in making mesh-to-NURBS conversions. Not sure if it's bi-directional or not, or whether anything is in the works to be compatible directly with SolidWorks, either.

(I got this from a post that Matt did a couple of days ago.)
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Corey Wallace @ Jeff Mowry on Jun 12, 2009 6:30 PM
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Jeff Mowry wrote:

Corey, you may want to look into what T-Splines is doing in making mesh-to-NURBS conversions. Not sure if it's bi-directional or not, or whether anything is in the works to be compatible directly with SolidWorks, either.

(I got this from a post that Matt did a couple of days ago.)

Thanks Jeff, very interesting article. There is definitely a need for this type of software and it looks like this T-splines deal might be headed in that direction.
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SP 4.0 Adds Decal Support to PV360!

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