31 Replies Latest reply on Nov 16, 2018 11:49 AM by Dwight Livingston

    complex design

    Matt Lombard

      I've been asked to do a bit of writing on "complex design". The request came from a marketing person who may or may not understand the request. If you as a CAD user were to want to read about "complex design", what sorts of things would you expect to read? From the context of the request, "complex design" appears to be different from surfacing, and is probably related to assemblies. Here are some of what I think this means, tell me what you think:

       

      1. skeleton techniques (like a backhoe where the mechanism is driven by a sketch)
      2. assemblies with a lot of parts/patterns (large hadron collider)
      3. assemblies with a lot of relationships between parts (plastic injection mold)
      4. master model - a 3D shape, probably made from surfaces, drives the model (like a car or a vacuum cleaner where many different parts make up the overall shape)
      5. complex from a simulation/analysis point of view (composite airframe)
      6. using many different design/manufacturing techniques (riding lawn mower - weldments, plastics, sheet metal, castings, machined parts, forged parts, etc...)
      7. tight tolerance precision, like optical alignment equipment

       

       

      If you could suggest a model that you think embodies complex design, that might be most useful for me.

        • Re: complex design
          James Riddell

          I would be interested in reading more developed explanations of Design Tables and various applications of Configurations.

          Of course, those you already list are good topics.

          • Re: complex design
            Glenn Schroeder

            I'd think all except 5 and 7, with an emphasis on 3 and 4.

            • Re: complex design
              Shawn Stugard

              I feel like #1 would be the most useful across industries, extra time spent here would improve just about anyone's game. #6 is pretty common and is likely to be encountered in the real world, so touching on this would be applicable to many readers.

              • Re: complex design
                John Stoltzfus

                Matt Lombard - Personally anything that we don't design on a daily basis can be challenging, I would put my hand up with surfacing, especially stuff that Shon Owl or Paul Salvador do with their eyes closed, however, it would be a good chance that to them your article would be a boring topic.

                 

                For any article painting a story with words is more important than the design item, will it read like a technical manual, or will it read like your sitting around the campfire telling a story, there is a difference... 

                • Re: complex design
                  Paul Salvador

                  1, 6 and 7.

                  ..a electro/mechanical watch or clock using all the materials process noted.

                   

                  ..and, with the use of Robotics/Processing/Assembly/Packaging.

                  • Re: complex design
                    Rubén Rodolfo Balderrama

                    I think it will be like

                    1- A complete cell with Robots for welding with transfer between each station.

                    2- A complete progresive die stamping anexed to a robot for transfer final componet to a rack or a pallette.

                    3- A mould with negative forms (I think you must to use some CUMSA on it) maybe it has a collapsible or similar.

                    4- A complete transformation process for a stamped part.

                      • Re: complex design
                        Paul Salvador

                        Ruben,... me likey!... Robotics w/processing..  yes, mucho better!

                          • Re: complex design
                            Rubén Rodolfo Balderrama

                            Si estaba pensando que algo complejo debiera de tener alimentador, un robot para hacer la transferencia o en el caso de moldes un poco complicados, angulos negativos de salida de producto.

                            Aunque Paul no vi aqui aun una transformacion de chapa compleja....si miras uno de los hilos un fabricante de herramientas pidio si lo asistiamos con las etapas intermedias de transformacion de un pieza de chapa metalica. Seria interesante ver algo de eso aqui para los que diseñan producto y los que fabrican las herramientas.

                        • Re: complex design
                          Kevin Pymm

                          Matt,

                           

                          What about Equations, Complex Equations & Global variables for driving designs?

                          • Re: complex design
                            Deepak Gupta

                            3, 4 and 6 should be able to cover the most for cad users

                              • Re: complex design
                                Matt Lombard

                                Ok, a lot of great suggestions here. How about a medical/dental chair that scans a patient's dimensions and then robotically adjusts to fit them. This could be driven by equations or tables (although it's a bad idea to drive a the same factors with both, maybe some parts could be driven by equations and others by table). A chair like this could incorporate mechanisms, complex shapes, motion, advanced visualization, assembly configurations, as well as many different mfg/design methods, including electronics, wiring, lighting.

                                 

                                Something with progressive dies and an automated assembly line would also be great, but I think my own personal skills would lend more to medical products.

                                 

                                Keep ideas coming, this is great. I appreciate it.

                              • Re: complex design
                                David Matula

                                easy made complex by where you have to put parts to drive purchase items.  and the model has to match the bill in the mrp system

                                • Re: complex design
                                  Dan Bovinich

                                  A single part with many, 100's of features, E.G. a design of a running shoe (I saw this at SW World one year, New Balance)

                                   

                                  Dan

                                  • Re: complex design
                                    Dan Golthing

                                    "a whole made up of complicated or interrelated parts"

                                     

                                    That's the definition of complex.

                                     

                                    So a complex design is an expansive assembly or I guess if you consider features as "parts" then a complicated part could be complex.

                                     

                                    I think of complex as an intricate assembly that has enough parts and details to make SolidWorks scream for mercy.  At that point, there's little forgiveness for sloppy CAD practices.

                                    • Re: complex design
                                      Dave Bear

                                      G'day Matt,

                                       

                                      I think all areas would be great with the exception possibly (for me) of 5 and 7 and a strong emphasis on ALL of the others!

                                      As a suggestion, only because I think it could cover all bases, how about a 'Transformer' like Optimus Prime (fully detailed) and more realistic than the example image I've posted.

                                       

                                      Optimus.jpg

                                       

                                      You could cover most (if not all) of the areas that you have mentioned.

                                      If 'Optimus Prime' is to much of a challenge, choose a smaller Transformer................

                                       

                                      There's also a challenge within this, could you actually model and assemble it so that it actually 'transfomed correctly'

                                       

                                      You did ask...............

                                       

                                      Dave.

                                        • Re: complex design
                                          Tom Helsley

                                          Yeah!  Or a Robotech vehicle...

                                          Robotech Rick Hunter's 1:100 VF-1J Veritech Action Figure Toynami Robotech New Generation Beta MPC Volume 1 0

                                          Whoa!!! That's bringing back memories !!!

                                          • Re: complex design
                                            Matt Lombard

                                            Dave Bear

                                            Yeah, that's perfect. Not sure what kind of sense of humor I'm dealing with, but that would really be cool.

                                             

                                            J. Mather

                                            An exoskeleton is on my to-do list, believe it or not.

                                            Paul Salvador

                                            Uh....    uh.....                

                                              • Re: complex design
                                                Dave Bear

                                                Matt Lombard wrote:

                                                 

                                                Dave Bear

                                                Yeah, that's perfect. Not sure what kind of sense of humor I'm dealing with, but that would really be cool.

                                                 

                                                J. Mather

                                                An exoskeleton is on my to-do list, believe it or not.

                                                Paul Salvador

                                                Uh.... uh.....

                                                 

                                                Just to clarify, If you think that my suggestion was just in jest or taking the piss then I can assure you that it was not Matt.

                                                 

                                                I seriously believe it would/could cover so many areas of SW and indeed have many areas of complexity.

                                                 

                                                Dave.

                                                  • Re: complex design
                                                    Matt Lombard

                                                    Dave Bear No, no, no, I meant on the other end. Sorry if I said that wrong. I meant the people that the work is for. They have a tendency to take some stuff possibly more seriously than is required. I'm not sure if I could sell a project like a Transformer.  But yes, I agree it's a great example that could be made to show a wide range of complex design.

                                                      • Re: complex design
                                                        John Stoltzfus

                                                        An ergonomic Chair with surfaces are a huge challenge if you don't know anything about.... Seat height, Back Tilt and Lumbar Support, so I would pick the "Airplane Seat" as the most challenging.  Only because I know the development time for just a simple wooden chair, it's not what it appears, there are a lot of design factors in;  "Feel" "Appeal" "Design Element" "Comfort" - The biggest obstacle in Chair design could be over a 5 billion Comfort reasons (which equates to the amount of airline passengers???)

                                                • Re: complex design
                                                  Tom Helsley

                                                  How about something with lots of moving parts or positions?

                                                  How about irregular movements (not linear or circular)?

                                                    • Re: complex design
                                                      Dennis Dohogne

                                                      Tom Helsley wrote:

                                                       

                                                      How about something with lots of moving parts or positions?

                                                      How about irregular movements (not linear or circular)?

                                                      THAT is complex design.  The proverbial packing of ten pounds of mechanism into a five pound sack!

                                                       

                                                      With all the emphasis on speed of execution in SWX I get very little benefit from it.  The computer is waiting on me.  I've got difficult actions to achieve and have to find hollowed out spaces to use for the mechanism.  A clock movement is a great example, especially one where there are other functions such as a cuckoo telling the hours.  That would be a really good example and one that everyone would recognize as being complex.

                                                    • Re: complex design
                                                      Dan Pihlaja

                                                      I can see the word "complex" being so many things here:

                                                      • A complex model is not necessarily a complex design.
                                                        • I would call a simple spoon a relatively complex model but a simple design
                                                      • A simple model can be made almost infinitely more complex depending on how much detail you want/need.
                                                        • Example:  A dresser can be a simple model. But starts getting more complex when you add things like drawer slides.   And then gets even more complex when you want to add in the ball bearings to the drawer slides.  Then gets even more complex when you want to add in the fact that the ball bearings need to roll as the slide is opened.
                                                      • A complex design can be a simple model
                                                        • Example: The pylon of a bridge can be a very simple CAD model, you might even be able to get it done in 1 or 2 simple features.....but the design of such a pylon is very complex, as there is a LOT that goes into the design of such a thing

                                                       

                                                      So, perhaps a complex design can be something very simple....just with very intricate detail.

                                                        • Re: complex design
                                                          Matt Lombard

                                                          Dan Pihlaja

                                                          Dan, yeah, I agree, complexity can be simply detail. In this situation I have to combine complex surfacing with complex design. A ship or plane would be ideal, but I'd have to leave out a lot of detail. I'm looking for a project where I can realistically complete a lot of detail.

                                                        • Re: complex design
                                                          John Burrill

                                                          Matt, this may be a little off-axis, but I think perception of complex design can be improved for everyone by using an historical case instead of a hypothetical one.
                                                          I mean, the backhoe, the telescope and other demo datasets are good at showcasing one vendors particular tools for a task like top-down, middle-out, master model or something, but if you can pick  a real world design that appeals to a broad range of intellects as complex, something like Oasis of the Seas or the Samsung Galaxy S9 or anything with parallel, non-contiguous development tracks.  Whether it's a elegant illustration of concurrent design principles or a horrid mess that ended in a congressional hearing, knowing what happened at the design integration level on something we all wonder at when we see it just like gets everybody that much more ready for it when they encounter it in their own work.

                                                          • Re: complex design
                                                            Dwight Livingston

                                                            I agree with your list, and particularly James's addition of a tabulated part with a design table. I'd add to your list a complex injection-molded part, with ribs, bosses, snap fits, irregular parting line, tool actions, and sculpted consumer-type surfaces. If you really want to go crazy, add sealing edges for external gas-assist.