61 Replies Latest reply on Sep 19, 2018 4:40 PM by Frederick Law

    GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?

    Mark Jackson

      Hello everyone,

       

      Yes I know Quadro cards are the "officially supported" cards for SolidWorks and Visualize, and I have a P5000 in my #1 workstation. I want to upgrade another workstation and just thought I would ask for some opinions between the 1080 ti and P4000. The specs on the 1080 ti blow the P4000 out of the water on paper, and they can be gotten for about the same price.

       

      Your thoughts and opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

       

      Thanks,

      Mark

        • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
          Rob Rodríguez

          If you're using the machine with the GTX card for CAD I would say no.

           

          This is the age old problem.  Gaming cards offer more performance than the CAD card but can cause issues with CAD software.  The CAD card costs more, but is more rock solid for CAD usage.

           

          Wouldn't it be great if Nvidia could give us a card that worked for both CAD and gaming at the gaming card price.  Us CAD people have been getting screwed by this for years.

          • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
            Chris Cunningham

            It is also my understanding the the "P" cards are able to make use of the de-nosier while the gaming cards are not able to. Something to consider if you are planning on upgrading the software.

              • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                Mark Jackson

                That could be Matt. I believe it is Pascal architecture is what the de-noiser needs. The 1080 ti has Pascal architecture. Maybe one of the SolidWorks guys can answer that for us.

                  • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                    Brian Hillner

                    Hi Mark - great to finally meet you in person @SWW. (Same with you, Matt!!)

                     

                    We never receive GeForce cards to benchmark test, but I did just receive a new Titan V. I can confidently say the new AI Denoiser will for sure work with that card, and likely any Pascal-based GeForce card. I have not tested any other GeForce card, so I cannot say which of generation of GeForce cards the new Denoiser will work with. If it follows the same compatability as the Quadro cards, then Kepler-based and Maxwell-based GeForce cards should also work with the Denoiser. You just have to have a minimum of 4GB ram on the GPU for the Denoiser to work.

                     

                    When the AI Denoiser is publicly available (2018 SP3), I would like for the Visualize community to help test the wide range of GeForce cards to comment on compatibility with the Denoiser.

                     

                    At the risk of being redundant, there is a time-bombed special of 30% off Quadro P4000, which is blazing fast with the new AI Denoiser:

                     

                    SAVE 30% off a Quadro P4000!! Visit the NVIDIA online store and use code P4000SWV30 if you’re located in the United States or P4000SWVEU if you’re in Europe, or purchase through PNY at www.PNY.com/SWW2018.

                • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                  Ron Bates

                  Upcoming denoiser is supported in Kepler series cards (with at least 4 GB of Video memory) and up.  So Kepler, Maxwell, and of course latest Pascal and forthcoming Volta are supported.

                   

                  To the original question of a Workstation class card VS a Consumer (gaming) class card... think of it this way...

                   

                  When you buy a workstation class card, you are paying for a lot more pre-release testing before the card even goes out the door, a support life-cycle (driver updates) in the range of ~10 years, actual bug fixes if needed, and continued testing and certification by NVIDIA and SW for years.

                   

                  All of this of course takes a lot of resources...

                   

                  When you buy a consumer class card, as my wife and I sometimes tell our 6 year old: "You get what you get, and don't get upset"

                   

                  Hope that helps

                    • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                      Mark Jackson

                      Agent 86 says to agent 99, "missed it by that much!" I have two workstations with K4000 cards that only have 3 GB video memory. Bummer. I use them to render static images with Visualize Standard.

                       

                      I was hoping someone in the Visualize community that does run a 1080 ti might chime in and let us know what their experience might be. I know several people who do use them for CAD with SolidWorks and say they work pretty darn good.

                    • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                      Dave Goetsch

                      Okay Mark, I'm a 1080 TI user (x2).  Here's a quick reference to Puget Systems speed tests of some Quadro cards in Visualize.

                       

                      pic_disp.jpg

                       

                      I'm running two 1080 TI's and my time for the above 1969 Camaro render is 77 seconds.

                       

                      Performance is much better than one Quadro GP100 @ $7,500.00 and nearly as good as two Quadro GP100's @ $15,000.00

                       

                      I bought my GeForce GPUs July of 2017 for $750.00 each so total cost $1,500.00 (yes, 1/10 the price!)

                       

                      I understand why many people want to use the officially supported cards but for me, a one man shop, it made no sense (cents?). I am a CADD guy too and I use Solidworks extensively. I've never had any problems running GeForce GPU's in Solidworks or Visualize. A simple registry hack enables RealView graphics for GeForce GPUs (they are fully capable) in Solidworks that DSS has chosen not to enable by default.

                       

                      Just my 2 cents........

                       

                      UPDATE:  I added (2) more 1080 TI's to my rig for a total of (4) and now my render time for the 1969 Camaro render is 38 seconds.

                      WoW.PNG

                       

                      Another interesting note is this. I ran the above render with just GPU. When I ran the exact same render in Hybrid mode using both GPU and CPU the render completed in the exact same amount of time, 38 seconds. This is with dual Xeon E5-2680's v3 with 24 cores and 48 threads. $4,000.00 worth of CPU's did not contribute to render times at all.  But, I also use other rendering programs that are CPU based and they run awesome on this box with those Xeons.....

                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                        Dave Bear

                        Just like Dave has mentioned, I too have been using the hack for almost two years now without issue.

                         

                        Dave.

                        • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                          Mark Jackson

                          Hi Guys,

                           

                          Nvidia emailed and said cards were in stock and would go on sale the next day late last week. So the next day I checked the site as often as I could. About 11:00 I checked and, "holy CUDA cores Batman!", the out of stock button was gone and click to buy was there! So I frantically click on 1080 Ti and put 2 in the cart (the max they allow), and clicked continue. The next page crashed. I tried this several times and crash, crash, crash. I tried again and it worked! I put in my credit card and clicked, and... Bam! "Sorry, but the 1080 Ti is out of stock."

                           

                          I looked at the lesser cards and a couple were left in stock. I thought about it but decided no, but... The TITAN Xp was still in stock. Hmm...

                           

                          I thought about it. I need cards. $1200 is the price you can get a 1080 Ti from places that have versions in stock like B & H Photo Video and some other reputable sites. Hmm...

                           

                          Bam! Bought two TITAN Xp cards at the Nvidia regular price of what 1080 Ti cards cost at the other sites (that you can actually get them from right now).

                           

                          So I'm anxiously waiting for 7680 CUDA cores to show up on my door step. They said shipping in 1 to 2 weeks. Each TITAN Xp has 3840 CUDA cores, 12 GDDR5X VRAM, with a memory bandwidth of 547.7 GB/s. Nvidia took my money, so the darn things better show up.

                          • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                            Mark Jackson

                            Hello Vizies,

                             

                            Well, I received my Titan Xp cards on Saturday and installed one in my workstation. We'll have to wait until I decide on which new motherboard I'm going to purchase before I can install the second and do some benchmarks with two in the machine.

                             

                            So, here's some benchmark results with the single card installed. I copied the settings used by Puget and used the Visualize supplied Camaro file.

                             

                            Both machines are running Windows 10 Pro.

                            Dell T5810 workstation:

                            Quadro P5000

                            Driver version 377.11

                            Xenon E5-1650 v4 (6 core, 3.6 GHz)

                            16 GB DDR4 RAM

                             

                            My custom build PC:

                            Titan Xp

                            Driver version 391.35

                            I7-2600K (4 core, 3.4 GHz)

                            32 GB DDR3 RAM

                             

                            1969 Camaro @ 1920 x 1080, GPU only, 1000 passes

                            Dell T5810:  244 seconds

                            Custom PC:  144 seconds

                             

                            The Titan Xp renders in 60% of the time it takes the Quadro P5000. This is consistent with other much more complicated render tests I did over the weekend. It's also 60% of the price of the P5000. So far, I think it's a great value for performance vs. cost when using Visualize. We''l see how it holds up over time.

                             

                            I'll let you guys know how it goes when I get a new motherboard and the second card installed in the machine.

                             

                            -Mark

                            • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                              Peter Hildebrandt

                              I´m just upgraded from GTX 680 (Kepler 4GB) to 1080Ti and did a little comparison.

                              Project Render: 5000px/500passes/GPU only:  23min vs. 6.30min

                              Viewport render of a complex Set with emissives,reflection,caustic,glas (accurate mode):  0.57 fps vs. 2.8 fps

                              • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                Dave Goetsch

                                Just like Jeffrey Model I was having throttling issues with my (4) 1080 TI's stacked on top of each other. I figured that would be the case but I thought I'd try it first anyway. Those double slot cards just starve for air due to the backplates of the lower cards blocking the fans of the card above. The only card that ran fine (no throttling) was the bottom card because it's fans were not blocked. The top three cards were throttling due to high temps 95c-100c. I've never wanted to introduce water into my workstation but in this case it was pretty much mandatory. My Xeons run fine on air so I just needed to water cool the GPU's. I'm still waiting for a couple fittings so I can finish the water loop. While I was at it I added EVGA PowerLinks to clean up the mess of wires that comes with adding four GPU's. Pics below...

                                 

                                Air.jpeg

                                IMG_4892.JPG

                                  • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                    Wojciech Paterski

                                    wow, that looks great:)

                                     

                                    I can see that you also changed the fan blades colour and upgraded? power supply

                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                        Dave Goetsch

                                        Yes, this is a new build that is actually not quite complete. I dumped all the stock fans in the CoolerMaster case and installed quieter, higher quality Noctua fans.

                                         

                                        Also, when I began the build I was only going to install two 1080 TI's but then decided to go all out and install four. I had installed a 1000w PSU but when I added up the wattage of my dual Xeon CPU's and four 1080 TI's I though I'd play it safe and install a 1600w PSU.

                                         

                                        You have a good eye....      =)

                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                        Jeffrey Model

                                        Looking like a very nice build, Dave Goetsch! I use the EVGA PowerLinks on mine as well - they go a long way towards cleaning up the cabling. I'm also running an EKWB loop for my GPUs, although I went with the aluminum gaming kits from their Fluiding Gaming series (A250G + the 360mm radiator expansion kit) because the bundle pricing was so appealing.

                                         

                                        Post an update once you have it up and rendering again. I think you'll be impressed not only with the performance you get back, but also with just how much more quietly the machine runs.

                                         

                                        I'm in the process of putting together a new machine to handle the 2080 Tis I pre-ordered. If the rumors are true, I think I'll be putting Corsair's new GPU setup into that along with the CPU cooler I already have from them.

                                          • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                            Dave Goetsch

                                            I'm very interested to see what the noise difference will be. I've been running the 4 EVGA 1080 TI's with stock air coolers (3 fans per GPU) and they can get quite loud at 99% utilization on hours long renders.  When I put the water blocks on I was able to get rid of 12 GPU fans. That should make a big difference.   

                                             

                                            Update will be coming soon. I should have it all buttoned up and running on water by next weekend.

                                              • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                Jeffrey Model

                                                Sounds great!

                                                 

                                                I've been running the Nvidia reference cards and the blower fan that Nvidia uses is extraordinarily loud. EVGA uses a much quieter trio of fans. Even so, your new machine should be markedly quieter since, exactly as you said, you've been able to remove 12 GPU fans from the mix.

                                                 

                                                Maybe we should start a new thread for our builds and see if we can come up with an updated Visualize benchmark that runs long enough to heat up the GPUs.

                                            • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                              Rich Fagioli

                                              Some serious allegations in your links, Mr. Law....

                                              Level two of the conspiracy is the graphics drivers which contain optimizations that specifically accelerate a variety of professional graphics applications, including CAD. The drivers are engineered to run only on the professional cards. Not because the hardware is more capable, but because they just won’t let you. Consumer graphics hardware is excluded from the inner circle.

                                              CAD models just aren't complex enough to justify professional graphics anymore. Respectable 3D capability is becoming a commodity, as even common handheld devices start pushing enough pixels to handle the average design. CAD is no longer near the tip of the spear for graphics rendering.

                                              Not that they are very surprising, but it would be nice to see sources and evidence for these statements. As for an industry-specific reply to Ed Lopategui's "conspiracy" theory here's one from someone who works for NVIDIA: https://www.boxx.com/Files/Files/WhitePapers/CAD%20Graphical%20Conspiracy%20BOXX.pdf

                                                • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                  Paul Salvador

                                                  Hello Rich,.. thanks for that PDF!

                                                  ..some good and funny statements,...I had to LOL with this one,...  "CAD users are extremely sensitive to line quality."

                                                  That is the least important issue,..  imho.

                                                   

                                                  BTW,.. was at Central Computers in Santa Clara looking at a Tesla (~$5K) yesterday,..  now, that is one expensive paper weight!

                                                  • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                    Frederick Law

                                                    No proof from me, just reading news, maybe fake news

                                                    Good pdf you found.

                                                     

                                                    My main point was OpenGL.  Lots of the graphic problems in SW (and Inventor before they dropped OpenGL) OpenGL hardware compatibility.

                                                     

                                                    On professional and consumer card.

                                                    Long time ago when GeForce card can be modified to be Quadro.

                                                    A few resistors needed to be rearranged so the hardware id became Quadro.

                                                    This allow flashing Quadro firmware to the card and install Quadro driver in Windows.

                                                    They don't work perfectly.  Probably hardware is optimized different.

                                                    CAD use lots of lines in edge display and drawing.

                                                    Game was mainly texture.

                                                    The Modded Quadro is slower with shaded with edge and drawing.  It also had problem displaying more then 5 graphic windows.

                                                     

                                                    This doesn't prove Quadro is not required.

                                                    It actually prove they're different enough.

                                                     

                                                    BTW People are still trying to mod GTX into Quadro without much success.

                                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                        Rich Fagioli

                                                        Yeah....5 grand for a card. I have yet to see (or understand, for that matter) the value in spending that kind of money. Perhaps my work is too rudimentary to justify such an expense. It's fair, in my "highly esteemed" opinion, to fault both NVIDIA and Dassault for not providing detailed performance data that justifies the "certification" tag on a card that's nearly 7x more expensive than one that seems perfectly usable. If they leave it to internets to provide us with  benchmark test results, those expensive cards are going to lose every time, at least for value. Where I work, we're all perfectly capable of building our own customized, powerful systems, but given time constraints, budgets, and technology obsolescence, we all run machines pulled from the shelves of Costco. Who's gonna put a $5,000 card into a $800 computer?

                                                         

                                                        But that's as far as CAD is concerned. I'm not so sure that the Visualize rendering process is in any way similar to the CAD data processing. Does Bunkspeed's ray-tracing algorithm require the same calculating horsepower and precision that Solidworks needs to manipulate huge assemblies? Where can one learn about the computational differences between CAD, rendering, and game development and how each stresses a GPU?

                                                          • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                            Frederick Law

                                                            The PDF you posted had some explanation on game and CAD different.

                                                             

                                                            CAD need higher precision and more accurate geometry since user will be looking at a still model.

                                                            Game is usually fast moving like watching movie.  You won't notice anything missing.  Sometime you'll see gap between polygons.

                                                             

                                                            On rendering they might be similar.  On daily use most CAD user would just look at shaded model.  The extra features on a professional card is not used.  Hence most people found a gaming card is usable.