77 Replies Latest reply on Nov 21, 2018 1:41 PM by Dave Goetsch

    GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?

    Mark Jackson

      Hello everyone,


      Yes I know Quadro cards are the "officially supported" cards for SolidWorks and Visualize, and I have a P5000 in my #1 workstation. I want to upgrade another workstation and just thought I would ask for some opinions between the 1080 ti and P4000. The specs on the 1080 ti blow the P4000 out of the water on paper, and they can be gotten for about the same price.


      Your thoughts and opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.




        • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
          Rob Rodríguez

          If you're using the machine with the GTX card for CAD I would say no.


          This is the age old problem.  Gaming cards offer more performance than the CAD card but can cause issues with CAD software.  The CAD card costs more, but is more rock solid for CAD usage.


          Wouldn't it be great if Nvidia could give us a card that worked for both CAD and gaming at the gaming card price.  Us CAD people have been getting screwed by this for years.

          • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
            Chris Cunningham

            It is also my understanding the the "P" cards are able to make use of the de-nosier while the gaming cards are not able to. Something to consider if you are planning on upgrading the software.

              • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                Mark Jackson

                That could be Matt. I believe it is Pascal architecture is what the de-noiser needs. The 1080 ti has Pascal architecture. Maybe one of the SolidWorks guys can answer that for us.

                  • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                    Brian Hillner

                    Hi Mark - great to finally meet you in person @SWW. (Same with you, Matt!!)


                    We never receive GeForce cards to benchmark test, but I did just receive a new Titan V. I can confidently say the new AI Denoiser will for sure work with that card, and likely any Pascal-based GeForce card. I have not tested any other GeForce card, so I cannot say which of generation of GeForce cards the new Denoiser will work with. If it follows the same compatability as the Quadro cards, then Kepler-based and Maxwell-based GeForce cards should also work with the Denoiser. You just have to have a minimum of 4GB ram on the GPU for the Denoiser to work.


                    When the AI Denoiser is publicly available (2018 SP3), I would like for the Visualize community to help test the wide range of GeForce cards to comment on compatibility with the Denoiser.


                    At the risk of being redundant, there is a time-bombed special of 30% off Quadro P4000, which is blazing fast with the new AI Denoiser:


                    SAVE 30% off a Quadro P4000!! Visit the NVIDIA online store and use code P4000SWV30 if you’re located in the United States or P4000SWVEU if you’re in Europe, or purchase through PNY at www.PNY.com/SWW2018.

                • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                  Ron Bates

                  Upcoming denoiser is supported in Kepler series cards (with at least 4 GB of Video memory) and up.  So Kepler, Maxwell, and of course latest Pascal and forthcoming Volta are supported.


                  To the original question of a Workstation class card VS a Consumer (gaming) class card... think of it this way...


                  When you buy a workstation class card, you are paying for a lot more pre-release testing before the card even goes out the door, a support life-cycle (driver updates) in the range of ~10 years, actual bug fixes if needed, and continued testing and certification by NVIDIA and SW for years.


                  All of this of course takes a lot of resources...


                  When you buy a consumer class card, as my wife and I sometimes tell our 6 year old: "You get what you get, and don't get upset"


                  Hope that helps

                    • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                      Mark Jackson

                      Agent 86 says to agent 99, "missed it by that much!" I have two workstations with K4000 cards that only have 3 GB video memory. Bummer. I use them to render static images with Visualize Standard.


                      I was hoping someone in the Visualize community that does run a 1080 ti might chime in and let us know what their experience might be. I know several people who do use them for CAD with SolidWorks and say they work pretty darn good.

                    • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                      Dave Goetsch

                      Okay Mark, I'm a 1080 TI user (x2).  Here's a quick reference to Puget Systems speed tests of some Quadro cards in Visualize.




                      I'm running two 1080 TI's and my time for the above 1969 Camaro render is 77 seconds.


                      Performance is much better than one Quadro GP100 @ $7,500.00 and nearly as good as two Quadro GP100's @ $15,000.00


                      I bought my GeForce GPUs July of 2017 for $750.00 each so total cost $1,500.00 (yes, 1/10 the price!)


                      I understand why many people want to use the officially supported cards but for me, a one man shop, it made no sense (cents?). I am a CADD guy too and I use Solidworks extensively. I've never had any problems running GeForce GPU's in Solidworks or Visualize. A simple registry hack enables RealView graphics for GeForce GPUs (they are fully capable) in Solidworks that DSS has chosen not to enable by default.


                      Just my 2 cents........


                      UPDATE:  I added (2) more 1080 TI's to my rig for a total of (4) and now my render time for the 1969 Camaro render is 38 seconds.



                      Another interesting note is this. I ran the above render with just GPU. When I ran the exact same render in Hybrid mode using both GPU and CPU the render completed in the exact same amount of time, 38 seconds. This is with dual Xeon E5-2680's v3 with 24 cores and 48 threads. $4,000.00 worth of CPU's did not contribute to render times at all.  But, I also use other rendering programs that are CPU based and they run awesome on this box with those Xeons.....

                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                        Dave Bear

                        Just like Dave has mentioned, I too have been using the hack for almost two years now without issue.



                        • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                          Mark Jackson

                          Hi Guys,


                          Nvidia emailed and said cards were in stock and would go on sale the next day late last week. So the next day I checked the site as often as I could. About 11:00 I checked and, "holy CUDA cores Batman!", the out of stock button was gone and click to buy was there! So I frantically click on 1080 Ti and put 2 in the cart (the max they allow), and clicked continue. The next page crashed. I tried this several times and crash, crash, crash. I tried again and it worked! I put in my credit card and clicked, and... Bam! "Sorry, but the 1080 Ti is out of stock."


                          I looked at the lesser cards and a couple were left in stock. I thought about it but decided no, but... The TITAN Xp was still in stock. Hmm...


                          I thought about it. I need cards. $1200 is the price you can get a 1080 Ti from places that have versions in stock like B & H Photo Video and some other reputable sites. Hmm...


                          Bam! Bought two TITAN Xp cards at the Nvidia regular price of what 1080 Ti cards cost at the other sites (that you can actually get them from right now).


                          So I'm anxiously waiting for 7680 CUDA cores to show up on my door step. They said shipping in 1 to 2 weeks. Each TITAN Xp has 3840 CUDA cores, 12 GDDR5X VRAM, with a memory bandwidth of 547.7 GB/s. Nvidia took my money, so the darn things better show up.

                          • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                            Mark Jackson

                            Hello Vizies,


                            Well, I received my Titan Xp cards on Saturday and installed one in my workstation. We'll have to wait until I decide on which new motherboard I'm going to purchase before I can install the second and do some benchmarks with two in the machine.


                            So, here's some benchmark results with the single card installed. I copied the settings used by Puget and used the Visualize supplied Camaro file.


                            Both machines are running Windows 10 Pro.

                            Dell T5810 workstation:

                            Quadro P5000

                            Driver version 377.11

                            Xenon E5-1650 v4 (6 core, 3.6 GHz)

                            16 GB DDR4 RAM


                            My custom build PC:

                            Titan Xp

                            Driver version 391.35

                            I7-2600K (4 core, 3.4 GHz)

                            32 GB DDR3 RAM


                            1969 Camaro @ 1920 x 1080, GPU only, 1000 passes

                            Dell T5810:  244 seconds

                            Custom PC:  144 seconds


                            The Titan Xp renders in 60% of the time it takes the Quadro P5000. This is consistent with other much more complicated render tests I did over the weekend. It's also 60% of the price of the P5000. So far, I think it's a great value for performance vs. cost when using Visualize. We''l see how it holds up over time.


                            I'll let you guys know how it goes when I get a new motherboard and the second card installed in the machine.



                            • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                              Peter Hildebrandt

                              I´m just upgraded from GTX 680 (Kepler 4GB) to 1080Ti and did a little comparison.

                              Project Render: 5000px/500passes/GPU only:  23min vs. 6.30min

                              Viewport render of a complex Set with emissives,reflection,caustic,glas (accurate mode):  0.57 fps vs. 2.8 fps

                              • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                Dave Goetsch

                                Just like Jeffrey Model I was having throttling issues with my (4) 1080 TI's stacked on top of each other. I figured that would be the case but I thought I'd try it first anyway. Those double slot cards just starve for air due to the backplates of the lower cards blocking the fans of the card above. The only card that ran fine (no throttling) was the bottom card because it's fans were not blocked. The top three cards were throttling due to high temps 95c-100c. I've never wanted to introduce water into my workstation but in this case it was pretty much mandatory. My Xeons run fine on air so I just needed to water cool the GPU's. I'm still waiting for a couple fittings so I can finish the water loop. While I was at it I added EVGA PowerLinks to clean up the mess of wires that comes with adding four GPU's. Pics below...




                                  • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                    Wojciech Paterski

                                    wow, that looks great:)


                                    I can see that you also changed the fan blades colour and upgraded? power supply

                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                        Dave Goetsch

                                        Yes, this is a new build that is actually not quite complete. I dumped all the stock fans in the CoolerMaster case and installed quieter, higher quality Noctua fans.


                                        Also, when I began the build I was only going to install two 1080 TI's but then decided to go all out and install four. I had installed a 1000w PSU but when I added up the wattage of my dual Xeon CPU's and four 1080 TI's I though I'd play it safe and install a 1600w PSU.


                                        You have a good eye....      =)

                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                        Jeffrey Model

                                        Looking like a very nice build, Dave Goetsch! I use the EVGA PowerLinks on mine as well - they go a long way towards cleaning up the cabling. I'm also running an EKWB loop for my GPUs, although I went with the aluminum gaming kits from their Fluiding Gaming series (A250G + the 360mm radiator expansion kit) because the bundle pricing was so appealing.


                                        Post an update once you have it up and rendering again. I think you'll be impressed not only with the performance you get back, but also with just how much more quietly the machine runs.


                                        I'm in the process of putting together a new machine to handle the 2080 Tis I pre-ordered. If the rumors are true, I think I'll be putting Corsair's new GPU setup into that along with the CPU cooler I already have from them.

                                          • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                            Dave Goetsch

                                            I'm very interested to see what the noise difference will be. I've been running the 4 EVGA 1080 TI's with stock air coolers (3 fans per GPU) and they can get quite loud at 99% utilization on hours long renders.  When I put the water blocks on I was able to get rid of 12 GPU fans. That should make a big difference.   


                                            Update will be coming soon. I should have it all buttoned up and running on water by next weekend.

                                              • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                Jeffrey Model

                                                Sounds great!


                                                I've been running the Nvidia reference cards and the blower fan that Nvidia uses is extraordinarily loud. EVGA uses a much quieter trio of fans. Even so, your new machine should be markedly quieter since, exactly as you said, you've been able to remove 12 GPU fans from the mix.


                                                Maybe we should start a new thread for our builds and see if we can come up with an updated Visualize benchmark that runs long enough to heat up the GPUs.

                                            • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                              Rich Fagioli

                                              Some serious allegations in your links, Mr. Law....

                                              Level two of the conspiracy is the graphics drivers which contain optimizations that specifically accelerate a variety of professional graphics applications, including CAD. The drivers are engineered to run only on the professional cards. Not because the hardware is more capable, but because they just won’t let you. Consumer graphics hardware is excluded from the inner circle.

                                              CAD models just aren't complex enough to justify professional graphics anymore. Respectable 3D capability is becoming a commodity, as even common handheld devices start pushing enough pixels to handle the average design. CAD is no longer near the tip of the spear for graphics rendering.

                                              Not that they are very surprising, but it would be nice to see sources and evidence for these statements. As for an industry-specific reply to Ed Lopategui's "conspiracy" theory here's one from someone who works for NVIDIA: https://www.boxx.com/Files/Files/WhitePapers/CAD%20Graphical%20Conspiracy%20BOXX.pdf

                                                • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                  Paul Salvador

                                                  Hello Rich,.. thanks for that PDF!

                                                  ..some good and funny statements,...I had to LOL with this one,...  "CAD users are extremely sensitive to line quality."

                                                  That is the least important issue,..  imho.


                                                  BTW,.. was at Central Computers in Santa Clara looking at a Tesla (~$5K) yesterday,..  now, that is one expensive paper weight!

                                                  • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                    Frederick Law

                                                    No proof from me, just reading news, maybe fake news

                                                    Good pdf you found.


                                                    My main point was OpenGL.  Lots of the graphic problems in SW (and Inventor before they dropped OpenGL) OpenGL hardware compatibility.


                                                    On professional and consumer card.

                                                    Long time ago when GeForce card can be modified to be Quadro.

                                                    A few resistors needed to be rearranged so the hardware id became Quadro.

                                                    This allow flashing Quadro firmware to the card and install Quadro driver in Windows.

                                                    They don't work perfectly.  Probably hardware is optimized different.

                                                    CAD use lots of lines in edge display and drawing.

                                                    Game was mainly texture.

                                                    The Modded Quadro is slower with shaded with edge and drawing.  It also had problem displaying more then 5 graphic windows.


                                                    This doesn't prove Quadro is not required.

                                                    It actually prove they're different enough.


                                                    BTW People are still trying to mod GTX into Quadro without much success.

                                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                        Rich Fagioli

                                                        Yeah....5 grand for a card. I have yet to see (or understand, for that matter) the value in spending that kind of money. Perhaps my work is too rudimentary to justify such an expense. It's fair, in my "highly esteemed" opinion, to fault both NVIDIA and Dassault for not providing detailed performance data that justifies the "certification" tag on a card that's nearly 7x more expensive than one that seems perfectly usable. If they leave it to internets to provide us with  benchmark test results, those expensive cards are going to lose every time, at least for value. Where I work, we're all perfectly capable of building our own customized, powerful systems, but given time constraints, budgets, and technology obsolescence, we all run machines pulled from the shelves of Costco. Who's gonna put a $5,000 card into a $800 computer?


                                                        But that's as far as CAD is concerned. I'm not so sure that the Visualize rendering process is in any way similar to the CAD data processing. Does Bunkspeed's ray-tracing algorithm require the same calculating horsepower and precision that Solidworks needs to manipulate huge assemblies? Where can one learn about the computational differences between CAD, rendering, and game development and how each stresses a GPU?

                                                          • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                            Frederick Law

                                                            The PDF you posted had some explanation on game and CAD different.


                                                            CAD need higher precision and more accurate geometry since user will be looking at a still model.

                                                            Game is usually fast moving like watching movie.  You won't notice anything missing.  Sometime you'll see gap between polygons.


                                                            On rendering they might be similar.  On daily use most CAD user would just look at shaded model.  The extra features on a professional card is not used.  Hence most people found a gaming card is usable.

                                                    • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                      Mark Jackson

                                                      Hi Vizies,


                                                      I've been away for a while because my account, tied to my work, was not accessible to me for a bit. I was laid off, but now back part time so I have access again. Anyhow, I have finished building my rendering work station. It's a Ryzen Threadripper 1920x with 64 GB memory and two Titan Xp cards. Unfortunately I don't have a license I can use at home anymore so I can't use it for Visualize, or run the Visualize benchmark tests Brian gave me.


                                                      Hopefully I'll be able to remedy that soon and report on how awesome it is! It runs everything else I create content with amazingly. Video editing, and rendering from other programs is fantastic.



                                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                        Brent Gaspard

                                                        VERY INTERESTING thread ... I am new to SolidWorks 2018, and much like you Mark I may be visiting models ~15% of my time, while leaning heavily on Visualize ~80% for client interactions and marketing content. I will also be occasionally run CFD and FEA analysis ~5%.

                                                        Reading a great deal these last two weeks around the CPU and GPU battlegrounds and seeing some MONSTER setups (including here), I am extreeeeeeemely curious and a little confused over what to do re: CPU and GPU options. I feel that I am narrowing my interest to ...

                                                        • CPU:
                                                          • Intel i7 8700k
                                                          • AMD Ryzen 2700x
                                                          • AMD Threadripper 1950x
                                                        • GPU
                                                          • Nvidia Titan XP
                                                          • Nvidia Quadro P4000
                                                          • AMD Radeon Frontier Edition
                                                          • AMD Radeon RX Vega 64


                                                        The links below offer me the most "pause" in rationalizing all the data from elsewhere. I would love anyone's feedback.

                                                        Radeon Vega Frontier Edition benchmarking & interview with AMD - YouTube

                                                        AMD Radeon Pro vs. NVIDIA Quadro: Workstation Performance - YouTube

                                                        THANK YOU for everyone's contributions in these SW threads.

                                                        PS ... I am  looking at building a "one CPU & one GPU station" to start, but would like to consider potential expandability for the future ... perhaps filling additional GPU slots over time. 

                                                          • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                            Jeffrey Model

                                                            Hi Brent -


                                                            I've put together two machines so far this year for very similar usage to what you mention. Here are my thoughts:


                                                            • CPU:
                                                              • Intel or AMD doesn't really make much difference here since the work you'll be doing is going to be GPU-accelerated. Go with whichever chip maker gives you the most warm & fuzzies.
                                                              • The one thing to keep an eye out for is the number of PCI lanes. If you're going to be doing a 2 GPU setup, then you'll want more than the 16 PCI lanes which the i7-8700k offers. For an Intel setup, you'd be better served by the i7-7820x's 28 PCI lanes. The difference in price is minimal (~$100 typically).
                                                            • GPU:
                                                              • Nvidia is really your only option here. Everything you're going to be doing relies on Nvidia APIs in order to function. Even if the AMD GPUs had faster hardware (they don't), the Nvidia cards would outperform them due to that.
                                                              • In terms of Quadro vs Geforce, I wouldn't bother with Quadro. You'll spend 2-5x as much in order to get 30% of the performance. Visualize doesn't make any use of the extra VRAM on Quadro cards, and it doesn't use any of the Quadro-specific APIs.
                                                              • Compared to a Geforce card, the only thing that a Quadro enables is "Real View" in Solidworks - but a Titan Xp actually gets that feature as well (the 1080Ti and 2080Ti do not). This is simply due to a firmware flag and isn't actually a hardware limitation.
                                                              • One note regarding the Titan: NVidia messed up the naming here. The Titan X, Titan X (Pascal), and Titan Xp are actually three different GPUs. In the second video you linked, the host uses the names interchangeably and the card he holds up is a Titan X (not Xp). If you're going to go with a Titan, the one you want to get is the Titan Xp from 2017.
                                                              • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                                Brent Gaspard

                                                                Jeffrey - THANK YOU SO much for your insight here. Gotta say, I was leaning toward the Titan "Xp" as late as yesterday ... your remarks here help to reinforce that inclination.


                                                                I also found your other thread on workstation specs ... What's your render rig? I hope to grow into one of those monster stations one day. So, what are the primary variances and considerations toward building a station around the Titan Xp vs 2080 TI?


                                                                Thanks again Jeffrey.

                                                                  • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                                    Jeffrey Model

                                                                    The benefit for most users, IMO, of a card from the Titan line (the most recent consumer model being the Titan Xp) is that RealView is enabled in Solidworks. Many users swear by the importance of this feature. Personally, I never use that feature and simply do all texturing and rendering in Visualize.


                                                                    The other potential benefit to the Titan Xp over the 2080Ti is that the Titan has 12GB of VRAM compared to the 2080Ti's 11GB. So, if your scene requires 10.1GB of VRAM, you're gonna be much happier with a Titan. If your scene doesn't fall within the 10.1-11.0GB range, then you're going to need a Quadro if you're over that range or won't see any benefit if you're under it.


                                                                    I went with the 2080Ti on the new build not because of what it can do today, but because of the hope/hype/technicolor dreams of what it will be able to do in the future. The price is the same as the Titan Xp, so that part was a wash. Software support for the RT hardware is essentially zero at this point outside of a couple of games, but many developers have made promises of 2019 support (which I will just assume means Q4 2019). There have been some promises of NVlink support - specifically, VRAM pooling - before then, but so far nothing really exists on that front either.


                                                                    So, that's essentially it. I saved $1 per GPU by going with something that isn't fully supported yet :-) But once it is, the performance benefits should be significant.




                                                                    Oh, one other thing: If you're planning to watercool AND overclock, then the 2080Ti FE turns into an absolute beast. But that isn't without its drawbacks, naturally. The Titan Xp is good for this, too, but the 2080Ti FE is on another level entirely.

                                                                  • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                                    Brian Hillner

                                                                    Thanks for the very helpful tips here, Jeffrey!

                                                                    For anyone that's reading this thread, it's a helpful place to hear about real-world Visualize users' experience


                                                                    FYI - Visualize does make use of all VRAM on any NVIDIA GPU.

                                                                    The VRAM is not additive, so if you have 2x GPUs each with 12GB VRAM, the total is still only 12GB VRAM.

                                                                    NVIDIA does have the new NV-Link adapter for it's newer cards, which does in fact adds all the VRAM together, which would be 24GB in this example. The higher the available VRAM, the larger and more complex models you can open in Visualize.

                                                                    1GB of VRAM = ~5 million polygons.

                                                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                                        Jeffrey Model

                                                                        That's a good clarification. Visualize can use all of the VRAM on any Nvidia GPU. From watching just how little gets used during my renders, it's tough for me to imagine the scenes complex enough to justify having a 24+GB Quadro GPU. At that level of scene complexity, it just seems like the Solidworks/Visualize combo isn't the typical solution that most users have gone with.


                                                                        This is also a bit of a contrast to the various other top-level rendering engines out there, like Octane, which seem to be much less efficient with their use of VRAM. When I load a couple of my fairly basic models into C4D and render via Octane, the VRAM usage is roughly double what Visualize uses (as reported by GPU-Z).

                                                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                                        Dave Goetsch

                                                                        All good info being posted here.


                                                                        One note,  Real View capability can easily be enabled for GTX and Radeon GPU's with a simple registry edit.


                                                                        There are threads in the Solidworks forum that discuss the process and there is a one click solution in the form of a registry editor called Realview Hack 5.0.1, just Google it.


                                                                        There are also discussions on GrabCad and videos on YouTube.

                                                                    • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                                      Dave Goetsch

                                                                      I finally got around to running the official Visualize Benchmark with my new workstation.


                                                                      # of GPUs = 4     (around $3k when I bought them)

                                                                      GPUs = GTX 1080 TI's   (Water Cooled)

                                                                      Vis 2019 SP0


                                                                      GPU only mode.


                                                                      Veiwport FPS 960x540 @500 passes: 96.20 - FPS

                                                                      Veiwport FPS 1920x1080 @500 passes: 27.22 - FPS

                                                                      Offline Render 1920x1080 @500 passes: 0:21 - Minutes:Seconds

                                                                      Offline Render 3840x2160 @500 passes: 1:11 - Minutes:Seconds

                                                                      • Re: GTX 1080 ti or Quadro P4000?
                                                                        Mark Jackson

                                                                        Hello again Vizies,


                                                                        Here are my results with the 2nd Titan Xp installed in my rig. Which you can see the details in this thread: Re: What's your render rig?


                                                                        Veiwport FPS 960x540 @500 passes: 57.58 FPS

                                                                        Veiwport FPS 1920x1080 @500 passes: 14.48 FPS

                                                                        Offline Render 1920x1080 @500 passes: 35 sec

                                                                        Offline Render 3840x2160 @500 passes: 2:14


                                                                        Happy Thanksgiving everyone!