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3D Printing Discussion fun!

Question asked by S. Casale on Sep 19, 2017
Latest reply on Dec 21, 2020 by Paul Salvador

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I just starting doing some research on in-house 3D printing for my organization for test equipment and prototyping.

Right now, with my current directive I can prove cost with my current choice, but that's not the only factor- of course our engineering department wants a 21st century toy. Come on, who wouldn't! I've been in contact with my VAR, but I figured I would speak with the community as well.

I am mostly interested in R.Protoyping small (12 inches or less), and/or components for non production test equipment.
Right now I am eyeing the MakerBot Replicator +.
- Anyone have any experience with this printer?
I am concerned with the cost of upkeep, and material replacement.

Any user with any valued thoughts that I haven't considered will be awarded 250 points. This if and until I run out of points

Any user with any valued questions I haven't thought of will be awarded 500 points. This if and until I run out of points.

I'll mark one of you lucky folks with the correct answer when I have had my fill... If I have my fill.

Anna Wood Oct 3, 2017 2:09 PM

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If you are looking at the RAISE 3D N2, also check out Stacker 3D. Stacker Industrial Grade 3D Printers | STACKER 3D

You want to be able to print more than PLA.

An enclosed printer for ABS and Nylon is just about a must to help with warping.

Dual extruders, allow for the use of dis-solvable support material. Which I think is a must in a commercial environment.

Consider a printer that has E3D hotends. Replacement parts are easy to get for the hot ends and nozzles. You will need to replace them as they will clog and get damaged.

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Dan Pihlaja Sep 19, 2017 1:10 PM
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We have a MakerBot. Not the replicator, but whatever the previous model was.

Here is the lowdown:
1) It took a LOT of trial and error to get any type of good prints out of it.

2) We originally had a massive amount of issues with the Smart Extruder that came with it. Needless to say we got at least 4 replacements (that MakerBot paid for) until we finally got one that wouldn't clog every 3 seconds.

3) It is limited to the PLA filament. Which is basically used for toys....that's about it. We initially thought we would be able to print CMM fixtures out of it (it wasn't the one that we originally wanted, but the owner of the company googled 3D printers and simply bought the first one on the list with 0 consultation from engineering).

However, with the PLA filament, the prints are weak and flimsy. This can be offset with a higher print density, but it doesn't get a lot better. Now, the only thing that we print with it are little holders that the interns design up and sometimes replicas of other designs just to hold.

My advice is to go with something that has a heated bed and will print ABS plastic (heated bed required for ABS, I think) if you are going to stick with extrusion printing.
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Keith Carter Sep 19, 2017 1:11 PM
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Make sure to review the software carefully to make sure it meets your expectations. More expensive machines have more sophisticated software.
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Dennis Dohogne Sep 19, 2017 1:11 PM
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Scott,
One of things that is easily overlooked is the printer resolution. There are a LOT of 3D printers out there and some of them are surprisingly low cost, but when you dig into the specs you see why. If your work will routinely requires close fitting/moving parts then a very fine resolution will be vital to you. Either that or make sure the material is easy to work with and that you have sharp blades, sandpaper, files, and a lot of patience to deal with the coarse resolution.
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Dan Pihlaja @ Dan Pihlaja on Sep 19, 2017 2:44 PM
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Also, in the process of the trial and error to get good parts, we ended up purchasing this software:
3D Printing Software | Simplify3D

It is far and away better than the software that came with the MakerBot when we bought it. Maybe they have improved the MakerBot software...not sure.
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Matt Peneguy Sep 19, 2017 1:26 PM
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I don't know much about the model you posted. But according to Amazon, there are only 38 reviews up. I've never used PLA, but that printer apparently exclusively prints in PLA. There are some newer materials available today that may be better, depending on your application. Maybe, you'd consider a model that will work with multiple materials, and maybe dual extruder? That would enable you to print something like this:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:242639
Which, is just cool... You can print an articulating hand (and that's several years old).
Also, I haven't used PLA, but I've seen closed build areas and they control the heat better. Maybe someone with more knowledge about that can comment. I know for ABS, I would not consider an open build platform.
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Matt Furches Sep 19, 2017 1:27 PM
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Stay away from makerbot. Overpriced or what you get. Look at the makergear M2 or the lulzbot taz 6. Both are excellent.
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Todd Blacksher Sep 19, 2017 1:29 PM
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One of the first people that I would go to with this question is Ed Gebo - Hopefully he tunes in to the forums, because he is a wealth of knowledge in this area.
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Christian Chu Sep 19, 2017 1:33 PM
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- I am mostly interested in R.Protoyping small (12 inches or less), and/or components for non production test equipment.
Now a day, there are all kind of low cost 3D printers (make sure to read the review pro/con)
I understand you're looking for a low cost 3D printer; it might work the way you want now
For long run, it's a good investment on the dimension elite unit as we have it for 8 yrs and it's still running good (voted for one of the best 3D printer on the market now) -
Engineering time is the most expensive - you might pay more now for the printer but it'd save much more and more for eng. time later on
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Matt Peneguy @ Dan Pihlaja on Sep 19, 2017 1:37 PM
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Dan,
Sorry about your experience. I bought the chinese ripoff of the replicator because of all of the issues with the MakerBot. Basically, a chinese company rolled all of the user upgrades into it and sold it online. I've been pretty happy with it because it literally printed out of the box. Which, this being my first experience was important. Of course it is now 3 years old and there are better options out there now.
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Matt Peneguy Sep 19, 2017 1:48 PM
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S. Casale,
This is a little off topic. But, if you are dropping that much money on a 3D printer, definitely consider 3D Printing Software | Simplify3D it is so much better than the slicing software that comes with these printers. That program allows you to customize the build plate and supports however you need, along with being able to visualize the build process and estimate print times and costs based on materials. You can modify temperatures, program in stops. It pretty much gives you full control over the whole print job. It's only $149 and you get lifetime upgrades (at least I have so far).
Edit to add: If you are purchasing a professional level printer as Christian Chu recommends. My above advice may not apply. It definitely applies to the entry level machines.
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S. Casale @ Dennis Dohogne on Sep 19, 2017 1:46 PM
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Great question!
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Vladimir Urazhdin @ Matt Furches on Sep 19, 2017 1:46 PM
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Makergear M2 we bought 1 year ago. Original intention was to use for prototyping only, but now printer is busy working also for some of production needs too. Only lowdown I found: the table is heated uneven along the surface. In some cases part deflection occurs.
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Alex Burnett Sep 19, 2017 1:48 PM
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I don't have any experience with the Makerbot that you mentioned but my company does have two different cost tier 3D printers. Here are my thoughts on the subject. Some of this may echo what others have said already.

Build Envelope: Look forward to 5-10 years (depending on return of investment) to see if what you are buying now will suit your needs going forward. The main driver of our last purchase was that a 8" cube was simply not enough to do what we needed. After a lot of research, we settled on a larger build area of 14"W x 12"D x 12"H. This allows us to iterate our larger concept parts more quickly and doesn't cost near as much as purchasing a print from a 3-D prototyping company.

Material: This is very important to research depending on your needs. You will need to define whether you are looking to just get form and fit out of it or if you also need some function. If you need functional parts, then materials such as ABS may be a bit limiting. Great options available these days are poly-carbonate, Nylon and even blends of materials to achieve different durability and strength requirements. If the part will be used for any purpose mounted to a fixture or something then the material needs durability. Note that changing material on one of these printers from one type to another could take a few hours to complete and calibrate.

If the printer is a higher cost, then it likely extrudes support material separately that can be dissolved away.

The low end of the cost curve for printers will likely only be able to extrude model material and it will use this as the support as well. The user will then have to break it away from the model when it is finished leaving the finish of the part affected. Cleanup with tools may be required.

Cost: This is the main driving factor regarding which printer options are available to you. Big name companies such as Stratasys will cost the most money. A lot of this is due to the customer service and maintenance plans that are provided with the printer. Additionally, these printers have very sophisticated systems in them that can be temperamental. Training for personnel will be required. If the printer uses support material then the chemical for the solution to do so requires ongoing investment and the heated bath is an added up front cost. As a personal gripe, you need to place this tank close to a water source, drain and have a table or rack for parts to dry once rinsed.

Speed: Often an overlooked specification, this will determine how much you can use your printer. For example, our old printer takes 2.5 times longer to print the same part at the same resolution as our new printer. This could be the difference in 1 business day for a small part and 2-3 days for a large part to be completed and ready to use.

Resolution: To reiterate what others have said, some printers can go as low as 0.005" layer thickness but this comes as a trade off with the total print time. If 0.010" or larger is fine with you then there are many printers our there capable of this that are affordable.

Consumables:
Model material, support material (if applicable), modeling bases, extrusion tips (if applicable) and other various wear items and consumables all cost money. Additionally, service technicians and maintenance plans cost money if you go with a printer that may require this.

Overall, I'm just saying that there are a lot of options out there so do your research with your requirements and determine what you need. A lot of printer suppliers will print models for you for free and ship them to you as a demo of the product so you know what you're getting. Don't be afraid to haggle either. Some of the higher end printers go on special from time to time at a steep discount. I know a lot of this doesn't apply to the make/model you're interested in but they are all variables to consider.
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S. Casale @ Vladimir Urazhdin on Sep 19, 2017 1:52 PM
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I'll look into that.
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S. Casale @ Vladimir Urazhdin on Sep 19, 2017 2:39 PM
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The only thing that I see holding me back from that is the small size 8x10x8 options. Even the M3 is the same size...
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John Stoltzfus Sep 19, 2017 2:59 PM
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S. Casale - I'm thinking within the last 2 or 3 months Dave Krum got a small 3d printer, but thinking that is just a really small unit.. I know Woodstream Corp where Jeff Holliday works, has some really expensive units, maybe he could fill you in... (no need to send me any points, probably didn't qualify)
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S. Casale @ Matt Furches on Sep 19, 2017 2:52 PM
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Looking into the lulzbot.
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Dave Krum @ John Stoltzfus on Sep 19, 2017 2:53 PM
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John / Scott,
I got a Wanhao Di3 v2.1 rep/rap printer. It will print up to about 7" x 7" x 7" or so. I've only used PLA filament so far and just bought Simplify3D a few days ago. Have yet to test it out, was using the bundled Cura Wanhao edition that came w/ printer but had some issues where you cannot vary the layer height at certain heights in model to improve (or speed up, etc) print quality.
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Matt Peneguy @ S. Casale on Sep 19, 2017 2:54 PM
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S. Casale,
When I looked into it last our local library prints at a substantially cheaper cost than some of the online 3D printing services. Maybe, you could look into what your local library uses in the way of printers? If they can print your your large print jobs, you may not need a large expensive unit...Just a thought.
As another option, if you are just prototyping, could you scale your models down such that the largest part fits on the platform?
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S. Casale @ Dave Krum on Sep 19, 2017 2:54 PM
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Thanks for the heads up!
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Dave Krum @ S. Casale on Sep 19, 2017 3:04 PM
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I've attached two pics of my printer in a home-built enclosure I made from two IKEA lack tables after getting ideas from several online sources. Basically all the red parts in the pics were printed to upgrade the printer for support / rigidity / etc. All pretty much downloaded off Thingiverse. If you're looking for a home printer that I have, the Wanhao has tons of support online for it. It cost me around 350 for printer. Filament about 17 a roll on amazon for PLA. Bought a Kill-o-watt meter and plugged into printer to determine how MUCH electricity these things used for 10 hour + prints. Have yet to look at my electric bill for kwh rate and compare to what the meter says lol.
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- P1.jpg2.0 MB
- Final - 2.jpg1.9 MB
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Jeff Holliday Sep 19, 2017 3:14 PM
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We have 4 3D Printers here.
1) Stratasys F170 FDM (replacing our old Dimension printer, 8 yrs service)
2) Eden 260V Polyjet (approaching 3 years)
3 & 4) Zortrax - 1 small format and 1 larger.

1) is our go-to printer of choice as was the Dimension it replaces. It prints very good resolution with mid-range material costs.
2) produces very good quality parts but the material is more expensive and the printer requires more maintenance due to the Polyjet technology.
3) The Zortrax printers are the most inexpensive both to purchase and material cost. They do not have separate support/model material cartridges so cleaning parts can be a bit more bothersome. These are very customizable (different print heads, temperature controls and a wide variety of material choices.
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Matt Peneguy @ Jeff Holliday on Sep 19, 2017 3:45 PM
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S. Casale,
I found this listing of 3D printer reviews over at Makezine:
https://makezine.com/comparison/3dprinters/
If you get some time, you may read a few of the reviews. I think most of those are hobbyist level printers, but the trade-offs with the different technologies may become evident. They like a few of the Delta style printers, which may be quicker, but depending on their design choices may not be as accurate. Though, if size matters, Delta style printers will be able to meet that requirement.
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J. Mather Sep 19, 2017 4:00 PM
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I just took a walk around the lab to see what we have (changes from week-to-week).
I would probably stay away from anything less than $10k.
Make sure you have water-soluble support build.
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S. Casale @ J. Mather on Sep 19, 2017 4:25 PM
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Now you're just showing off.
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