96 Replies Latest reply on Apr 12, 2017 7:05 PM by Paul Salvador

    Solidworks in the cloud.

    Steven Smith

      With Autodesk Fusion taking the forefront as an alternative cloud based 3D CAD system, does Dassault plan on something similar?

      Oh, and most importantly.... Within the same price range

        • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
          Craig Schultz

          Mechanical Conceptual is on the cloud.

           

          If they pay attention to the Fusion boards and down time......they better not.  Relying on their own servers to run millions of seats, um, not a good plan.  People letting their IP float around, there'd be another uproar.

           

          PS - Fusion is hardly a replacement.  Look at the limitations.  If you do sheet metal or multiple sheet drawings (just 2 examples off the top of my head), you aren't going to be able to move.  It's always been "in development"

          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
            Jim Steinmeyer

            I can't answer as to what their plans are but I did receive a survey from them a couple of months ago that was directed at using the cloud.

                 I myself am not in favor strictly because we live in flyover country and cloud access can be spotty. We seldom go a month without losing net connection for at least a few hours once or twice.

            • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
              Chris Clouser

              I'm not a fan of the cloud in some ways.  Not having your application local can cause problems if there are internet issues.  Having millions of dollars worth of data floating around out there is also a scary thought.

               

              I am in favor of SWX having a basic program.  That is a basic, basic program.  No sheetmetal, no weldments, no decaffeinated FEA, etc.  Limited part features, limited assembly parts, etc.

               

              $995.

              $250 maintenance.

               

              think of job shops mostly using SWX to open and do minor manipulation of customer part files and think of hobbyists learning CAD or playing with 3D printing.  They don't need 1/10th of what Core can do.

               

              Call it the gateway drug.  They will sell a lot less core seats, but they will probably open up larger markets and be able to better compete with the cloud products coming down the pike.  Many of these new users will eventually want more capability, like sheetmetal.

               

              This will also cut down on the bootlegging.

                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                  Christian Chu

                  Seems like you want to go back to basic AutoCAD with no extra addin built-in while most of the jobs now require software with basic features as SW standard

                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                      Chris Clouser

                      Your reply makes no sense.

                       

                      It's almost as if you didn't read my post.

                       

                      There are millions of job shops that just want to import customer files and do very basic manipulation, if any at all.  They then can use it to quote, or spit it out to CAM.  Why do they need to pay $4000 and then $1200 a year for standard and all the bells and whistles it offers?

                       

                      In fact one I just talked to recently dumped his SWX license and switched over to the free Fusion.  I'm sure he's not the only one.

                       

                      Why do you mention AutoCAD?  Did I say lose 3d, the parametrics, and other basic functionality of SWX?  Please don't put ridiculous words in my mouth.

                       

                      I don't know how much you get out of your own office environment, but I interface with countless job shops most of which don't want or need all the capabilities of the standard product or it's price.  There's hundreds of incubators popping up all over the country with 3D printers and CAD, they don't need much capability.  There are MANY design houses that only design products with very limited complexity.  There are manufacturing facilities who's engineers use full-blown SolidWorks, but the shop supervisor would just like a simple interface with limited functionality because they're not a computer whiz.  There are people that just want to tinker.  These people as well as many others would do just fine with an economy version of SolidWorks.

                       

                      How do you know what "most of the jobs" need?  You obviously don't.

                       

                      Do they need unlimited features in the tree on a part?

                      Do they need surfacing?

                      Do they need unlimited parts in an assembly?

                      Do they need weldments?

                      Do they need sheetmetal?

                      Do they need the ability to make a drawing?

                      Do they need animation and visualization?

                      Do they need interference detection?

                      Do they need decaf FEA?

                      Do they need DFMXpress?

                      Do they need any of the productivity tools?

                       

                      In millions of cases, the answer to all these is NO.  In fact, you don't even use all this stuff.  I know I don't.

                       

                      For those of us who use CAD every day, and especially those who's employer pays for it, who cares what the price is?  But there are countless businesses that only need it once in awhile and when they do, they need almost no capabilities.  Yet they pay for all the above features that come in Standard.

                       

                      These are the guys that, as they hear about it, will be leaving our family and moving to Onshape or other economical solutions.

                       

                      You seem to be either ignorant that these customers (and potential customers) exist, or you are extremely insensitive to their needs.  This is what happens when you don't pay for your own license.  You don't seem to understand that many of us do pay for it and want the product and price-point to fit OUR needs, not SolidWork's corporate overlord Dassault's quarterly profit chart preferences.

                       

                      I've seen SolidWorks ignore this demographic for years.  It's their prerogative, but know that those people aren't here on the forum to defend themselves.  They are quietly browsing the internet for a more affordable solution.

                        • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                          Christian Chu

                          "There are millions of job shops that just want to import customer files and do very basic manipulation"

                          You don't need SW for this purpose and eDrawing/draftsight is good enoug

                            • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                              Anna Wood

                              Christian Chu wrote:

                               

                              "There are millions of job shops that just want to import customer files and do very basic manipulation"

                              You don't need SW for this purpose and eDrawing/draftsight is good enoug

                               

                              How do you manipulate a 3D solid model in eDrawings?  Add or Subtract from the solid volume?

                               

                              How do you work with the 3D solid model in 2D Draftsight?  Add or Subtract from the solid volume?

                                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                  Christian Chu

                                  Chris, Anna

                                  I thought I shouldn't but I need to spell out here for you guys. What I mean in "very basic manipulation" here is to view the 3D model and take some measurements as what have been done in the machine shops. Any change in the design should be done by engineers, not from the shop floor. If you go beyond this point, then yes, eDrawing/Draftsight is not enough

                                  One more thing, I DO care about the cost of the software - it's a part of the eng. budget

                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                      Rick Becker

                                      There are times during programming a part to cut that a surface may need to be extended, or a start position needs either a point or a circle, or pockets need to be offset, or etc. SolidWorks is usually a better way to make these basic changes.

                                        • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                          Christian Chu

                                          that's the reason why we have one (SW standard) network lic. for 6 guys in the machine shop in case they need to do some adjustments for machine operation which won't change the design.

                                            • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                              Rick Becker

                                              Christian, that's why a stripped down version with basic features at an low cost would be great thing.

                                              • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                Chris Clouser

                                                Yes, thanks, this just further proves my point, your shop doesn't need:

                                                 

                                                Do they need unlimited features in the tree on a part?

                                                Do they need surfacing?

                                                Do they need unlimited parts in an assembly?

                                                Do they need weldments?

                                                Do they need sheetmetal?

                                                Do they need the ability to make a drawing?

                                                Do they need animation and visualization?

                                                Do they need interference detection?

                                                Do they need decaf FEA?

                                                Do they need DFMXpress?

                                                Do they need any of the productivity tools?

                                                 

                                                Furthermore, the presence of all these just obfuscates the primary functionality for uninitiated users.

                                                  • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                    Christian Chu

                                                    To answer your question:

                                                    My car has:

                                                    1) CD player which I never used

                                                    2)Sunroof: I probably used couple times for the last few yrs

                                                    3) Leather seat and I hate it

                                                    4) and more features which I never used or am not aware if they are existed

                                                    the point is: no body twisted my arm to buy it and I can't ( I can but it's not going to happen -  why wastes time) call the car manufacturer to complaint why they add the features which I don't need

                                                    Bottom line: I accept it or buy another car from diff. manufacturer next time

                                                      • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                        Chris Clouser

                                                        Or, if there are potentially millions of people that feel the way you do, maybe somebody would be kind enough to point this out to the manufacturer SO THEY CAN PROPERLY TARGET THEIR CUSTOMER BASE!  This is why car companies are smart enough to provide a variety of models and a variety of trim options.  And they have additional options at the dealer.  Once again, your arguments support my hypothesis.  In your case, you bought the wrong car.  Bad on you, not the auto industry.

                                                         

                                                        I'm not sure how you're not seeing that your argument supports what I'm saying.  Case in point, my brother has his own machine shop and doesn't feel right paying thousands of dollars for SolidWorks when he only will use about 10% or less of it's capabilities.  So instead of getting his business for a "lite" version, he just sends me his files for whatever he needs or uses a buddy's seat.  Plain and simple: that's lost business.

                                                         

                                                        Here's a job shop that I just got an email from five minutes ago.  Needless to say, because they don't have basic CAD operability, they probably WON'T get my business:

                                                         

                                                        Chris,
                                                        Sorry for the delay, it has been a bit crazy.
                                                        Go ahead and send the files, we only have a viewer but we can look and see what you have done.
                                                        If we are going to build a prototype we would need fully dimension-ed PDF and a DXF file.

                                                        Now, why would I want to fully dimension a drawing?  Anybody doing fully-dimensioned drawings these days has absolutely no idea what they are doing.  So, if I want to work with these guys, I will have to charge my client thousands and thousands more dollars so I can grind away on drawings!!??  I don't think so.  These guys need to be able to take a CAD part, open it, measure it, and do basic operations.  That's it.

                                                          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                            Paul Salvador

                                                            Chris,...you have to bring up a issue which has made me so effn mad for >20yrs!...

                                                            ..and these companies are now making us pay for it!?...

                                                             

                                                            Practical viewing tools for clients and ...MBD or PMI.

                                                             

                                                            eDrawings, imho, which has been MILKED for years... is CRAP!

                                                             

                                                            It just irks me too no end!!!!!!!!!

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            ...for instance... look at how many viewers are on the market....  amazing... yet,... we have eDrawings?????

                                                             

                                                            CAD Viewers

                                                            • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                              Glenn Schroeder

                                                              Chris Clouser wrote:

                                                               

                                                              Here's a job shop that I just got an email from five minutes ago. Needless to say, because they don't have basic CAD operability, they probably WON'T get my business:

                                                              Now, why would I want to fully dimension a drawing? Anybody doing fully-dimensioned drawings these days has absolutely no idea what they are doing. So, if I want to work with these guys, I will have to charge my client thousands and thousands more dollars so I can grind away on drawings!!?? I don't think so. These guys need to be able to take a CAD part, open it, measure it, and do basic operations. That's it.

                                                               

                                                              I do a fully dimensioned Drawing for every project.  I work at a testing lab, and we produce a written report for every test, which includes a Drawing that fully documents what was tested.  But you're probably right about me having absolutely no idea what I'm doing.
                                                                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                  Chris Clouser

                                                                  Glen, as you can imagine, had I said, "anybody still drawing with pencil and drafting board is a fool in light of modern 3D CAD systems." somebody is bound to come along and say, "well I still am so I must be a fool...".  That doesn't really disprove my point

                                                                   

                                                                  If you in fact have some rare and inescapable reason to fully dimension everything, that would be interesting to hear.  But as you may know, your 3D CAD file is an archivable document that, along with it's drawing, provides sufficient documentation of "what was tested".  So when one is putting dimensions on a drawing that already exist in the model itself and are bounded by a tolerance note in the notes or otherwise, it is a redundant and unnecessary task.  I think you'll find that many of the dimensions you use could possibly fall into this category.

                                                                   

                                                                  Notable Exception:  you are dealing with a shop out of the 1950's who can't read a CAD file.

                                                                   

                                                                  I too have worked in a very similar capacity as you, designing products for crash testing and then working with the crash test facility to test and document a product.

                                                                   

                                                                  I've probably been involved in between 50-100 crash tests, so I'm no stranger to the process.

                                                                   

                                                                  Never did I do a fully-dimensioned drawing, because the 3D file was always a partner to my flat drawing.  By calling out a standard allowable deviation from the 3D file on the drawing, I then only needed to dimension the higher tolerance features as well as other things such as torques, finishes, etc.

                                                                   

                                                                  And the bottom, bottom line is you'll probably get a much better part in the end.  Shop people and fabricators aren't always they type of people that like to pour over drawings all day long to ensure they get every little dimension.  Less dimensions ensure they are focused on the most important ones.  Let CAM deal with the rest.

                                                                   

                                                                  I wish I could show some examples from my Northrop day to see just how powerful this is, but alas, they are all ITAR restricted.

                                                                   

                                                                  http://blog.grabcad.com/blog/2014/08/19/engineering-drawings-are-dead/

                                                                   

                                                                  #reduced dimension drawing

                                                                  #art to part

                                                                  #model centric drawing

                                                                  #save time

                                                                  #save money

                                                                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                  S. Casale

                                                                  I have to say this is ridiculous.

                                                                   

                                                                  I had so much more I wrote on how ridiculous your response was. I just couldn't post it, I had to delete it.

                                                                   

                                                                  How do you legally hold the vendor to manufacture what you provide them if you do not provide them a fully defined print?

                                                                  How are you beholden to contract with your customer if you are not provide a fully defined print?

                                                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                      Timothy Taby

                                                                      We do all of our plastic parts molds off sending a 3D model to them, but we also make drawings of the part as well for inspection purposes. Drawings don't and can't always provide intimate details like draft and fillets properly like the 3D model can.  But Scott is right, how can you expect them to provide a proper part if there isn't a drawing.

                                                                      • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                        Jim Steinmeyer

                                                                        I think we are looking at a couple of different situations. For things manufactured in house the completely detailed prints may not be needed. If I provide a dxf to the plasma table with check dimensions on it I should not need to dimension every little hole and curve. The dxf will control the profile and the shop is not going to take the time to measure each one. I did have a supervisor tell me 15 years ago that a drawing needed enough information to be able to recreate the part if the model were lost. Good advice if you are not diligent to keep models backed up.

                                                                        Providing adequate drawings for an outside vendor would be vital but again, several years ago I was working on a windshield that was modeled with surfaces and splines. When I asked the forum how to dimension that for a vendor Matt Lombard responded that you provide the model and they need to match the glass to the model. His statement was that if the vendor could not do that you needed a different vendor. I honestly do not know how you would dimension a complex surface modeled with splines and be anywhere accurate.

                                                                          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                            S. Casale

                                                                            In house is a little different.

                                                                            Quick one offs are a little different. All depends on the risk (amusing the new ISO standards) and cost.

                                                                             

                                                                            Whoever told you 15 years ago that a drawing is only to be able to recreate the part hasn't ever worked for aerospace or government programs.

                                                                             

                                                                            Complex surfaces perhaps are different, however how do you legally control the finished product? Is it agreed with the vendor that the model is the legal document?

                                                                             

                                                                            Imagine if GM just threw together a few models and loosely controlled drawings and then sold hundreds of thousands cars with some of the documentation complete. Imagine one out of every five cars just started blowing up. Imagine the field day, if the lead engineer said, "well it's not our standard practice to dimension the molded paths of the engine blocks. So we assumed the "Mold house would just do it right, even though we had nothing definitive to inspect to."

                                                                            Nope.

                                                                              • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                Jim Steinmeyer

                                                                                Scott,

                                                                                I would take the stance that if you can accurately recreate every aspect of a model from the drawing then that would also pretty well define what ever can be measured and created in the shop. Granted we were not working with molded or cast products. Most of my design has been weldments and sheetmetal so other product lines may vary. I know my one foray into surfacing taught me that not everything can always have clean dimensions.

                                                                                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                  Chris Clouser

                                                                                  Scott Casale wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  In house is a little different.

                                                                                  Quick one offs are a little different. All depends on the risk (amusing the new ISO standards) and cost.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Whoever told you 15 years ago that a drawing is only to be able to recreate the part hasn't ever worked for aerospace or government programs.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Complex surfaces perhaps are different, however how do you legally control the finished product? Is it agreed with the vendor that the model is the legal document?

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Imagine if GM just threw together a few models and loosely controlled drawings and then sold hundreds of thousands cars with some of the documentation complete. Imagine one out of every five cars just started blowing up. Imagine the field day, if the lead engineer said, "well it's not our standard practice to dimension the molded paths of the engine blocks. So we assumed the "Mold house would just do it right, even though we had nothing definitive to inspect to."

                                                                                  Nope.

                                                                                  Scott,

                                                                                   

                                                                                  NO.  In house does NOT have to be different.  As you will see in other posts, the CAD file is the STANDARD.  The drawing is only an augmentation of it.  Holding a job shop to a CAD file is not odd or unusual.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  With the advent of CAM we have evolved well beyond the flat drawing.  In many cases, a flat drawing ISN'T EVEN NECESSARY!

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Your understanding of this process is considerably lacking and therefore your attacks are incorrect.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  For instance your GM analogy is garbage.  I would submit that a proper reduced-dimension drawing is FAR more a work of higher intellect than a fully-dimensioned drawing, and when coupled with it's 3D file perhaps much better.  The reduced-dimension drawing requires the designer to better understand and define the more important and critical features while understanding that there are many features that need only be driven by 3D geometry and block tolerance.

                                                                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                      S. Casale

                                                                                      Chris Clouser

                                                                                      Listen. Calm down. Be constructive. No one is attacking you.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I ACTUALLY am a big supporter of Model Based Manufacturing. I wish I could implement the use of. However, I have yet to work with a firm that uses it solely, or even for 1% of their engineering/manu. business.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      It is ridiculous to me because if a drawing is used, it can't be partially defined. It just can't. It is a legal document, when undefined, is left open for interpretation. Period. Having it tied to the model is all well and good but still can be left to interpretation if not defined.

                                                                                           What I mean by that is if you don't specify geometry specifically to the drawing it must be clear (on that drawing) that it and what is defined by the model.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Again, we send models to vendors all the time. I've done it where the model is the principal definition, but that was clear on, and matched the drawing.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      The GM example is exactly how lawsuits happen.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Paul Salvador

                                                                                      Interesting note. I've used similar, but didn't define specifically to the database but rather a file name.

                                                                                       

                                                                                       

                                                                                      All this is well and good.

                                                                                        • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                          Timothy Taby

                                                                                          We use the model for our mold generation because trying to define all the drafts and radii on small areas on a drawing is nearly impossible, but we also generate the drawing for overall and inspections dimensions so that the molder has a target to shoot for. You also need a drawing to put limits and tolerances on critical dimensions, there is no way to impart that via a solid model alone.  So both are important to us.

                                                                                           

                                                                                          I agree that I don't want to spend the time required to fully detail every nook and cranny of a complicated part, but I also don't want anything to be misunderstood either, so we do both he model and a drawing for nearly all parts.

                                                                                          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                            Chris Clouser

                                                                                            Scott Casale wrote:

                                                                                             

                                                                                            Chris Clouser

                                                                                            Listen. Calm down. Be constructive. No one is attacking you.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            I ACTUALLY am a big supporter of Model Based Manufacturing. I wish I could implement the use of. However, I have yet to work with a firm that uses it solely, or even for 1% of their engineering/manu. business.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            It is ridiculous to me because if a drawing is used, it can't be partially defined. It just can't. It is a legal document, when undefined, is left open for interpretation. Period. Having it tied to the model is all well and good but still can be left to interpretation if not defined.

                                                                                            What I mean by that is if you don't specify geometry specifically to the drawing it must be clear (on that drawing) that it and what is defined by the model.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            Again, we send models to vendors all the time. I've done it where the model is the principal definition, but that was clear on, and matched the drawing.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            The GM example is exactly how lawsuits happen.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            Paul Salvador

                                                                                            Interesting note. I've used similar, but didn't define specifically to the database but rather a file name.

                                                                                             

                                                                                             

                                                                                            All this is well and good.

                                                                                            Scott, I'm obviously not doing a good job at explaining how this works.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            Let's say you have a part that is all surfaces and there are really no dimensionable features.  It looks like a fluffy cloud and you want to machine it.  How do you fully dimension it?  You don't.  You refer to the 3D model and the CAM system will figure out how to machine it.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            This process can easily be legal if the drawing states that the CAD file is the standard and state the provisions by which the final product is evaluated (such as all surfaces +/- .005" from the 3D file).  And then, as in all legal cases, the attorneys can argue about how to verify if the part is legit or not, the inspection process, etc.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            I just don't see any issue with having the CAD model part of the legal documentation in that it accompanies the drawing.  For undefined features one just refers to the model.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            Now imagine another part that has a few important features that MUST be carefully defined either in a drawing or in a model-based definition, and then the rest of the part isn't as important as long as it remains within a given tolerance zone.  The same process can apply.  AS Paul Salvador mentions in his notes, the database (or CAD model) can govern the design UNLESS NOTED.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            And then of course, just like the drawing revision process, ensuring that vendor and customer are in agreement on which drawing version is the appropriate one, the CAD model must also be controlled.  As we can assume, the CAD model can be manipulated by the vendor if they wanted to.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            In your GM example, you set up a Strawman fallacy.  You equate a "reduced dimension" drawing with an "incomplete drawing".  The two are NOT the same.  A reduced dimension drawing is perfectly complete and 100% adequate if done properly and is accompanied by the 3D CAD file.  And if done properly there is absolutely NO room for interpretation on a reduced dimension drawing.

                                                                                             

                                                                                            I'd be willing to bet that GM uses some form of reduced dimension drawings.

                                                                                            • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                              Tom Gagnon

                                                                                              About this apparent disagreement, I can assume that you two (i.e., Scott Casale, Chris Clouser) do not work at the same business with the same procedures and same leadership and same priorities. Can we just generalize this by stating that there are differences between users based on these attributes, and agree that not every process, industry, and document requirement is the same as the next?

                                                                                               

                                                                                              No one is telling you how to do your job. Everyone has a perspective. Conformity does not exist.

                                                                                                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                  S. Casale

                                                                                                  Yep. It's the truth.

                                                                                                  I worry as I've seen the trouble.

                                                                                                   

                                                                                                  That's all.

                                                                                                  • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                    Chris Clouser

                                                                                                    Tom Gagnon wrote:

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    About this apparent disagreement, I can assume that you two (i.e., Scott Casale, Chris Clouser) do not work at the same business with the same procedures and same leadership and same priorities. Can we just generalize this by stating that there are differences between users based on these attributes, and agree that not every process, industry, and document requirement is the same as the next?

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    No one is telling you how to do your job. Everyone has a perspective. Conformity does not exist.

                                                                                                    Tom, that's not really the question.  If it's your companies policy to do fully dimensioned drawings, then that's what you have to do.  But does that mean you can't present them with a way to save a tremendous amount of time and money?  As many of us here are engineers, we have a professional and ethical responsibility to our employers and clients to represent them in their best interest.  If we can carefully and cautiously present them with a new way to do something that will be more efficient and reduce operating costs, shouldn't we take a few minutes to fully understand it before spouting off?

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Scott emphatically stated that Reduced Dimension Drawings (RDD) can't possibly work.  If you'll take a trip back in time with me, here's what he initially said:

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    "I have to say this is ridiculous.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    I had so much more I wrote on how ridiculous your response was. I just couldn't post it, I had to delete it.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    How do you legally hold the vendor to manufacture what you provide them if you do not provide them a fully defined print?

                                                                                                    How are you beholden to contract with your customer if you are not provide a fully defined print?"

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Now, I'm being called ridiculous, so much so that Scott had to delete a significant part of his rant!  The real thing that is ridiculous is that some of you think I'm not supposed to respond.  Let's all get over our dainty selves. 

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    First, there is NO legal issue with RDD if done properly.  Forget the fact that you probably have a quality system that will catch any erroneous parts.  If you can't find it in your heart to believe me, understand that billion dollar companies, some of which I know of first hand, save themselves millions of dollars a year by using it.  I've designed and produced hundreds and hundreds of products and almost never fully dimension a drawing.  I never lose sleep over the legal efficacy of my documentation.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    The fact that some here are uncomfortable with the notion that a CAD model could also be an admissible item in a court doesn't set any sort of legal precedent and doesn't negate this practice.  I don't see any issue with the idea.  And trust me, I think our legal system, if it hasn't already, will be venturing into these waters.  There is already legal disputes over rightful ownership of 3D content.  3D CAD is already making a name in the courts when it comes to legal rights, patents, 3D printing, and many other interesting legal arenas.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Let's look at the indisputable math behind RDD:

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    RDD + 3D CAD = or > Fully Dimensioned Drawing

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    At no time is RDD < FDD.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    QED. 

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Scott also called a RDD an "incomplete drawing".  This too is simply not factual.  How do I make this understood?  Apparently I can't.  The fact is it's actually MORE complete than just a drawing by itself.  Dimensioning every unimportant feature is an exercise in futility (unless your product is entirely hand made, IE no CAM, etc such as Glen has stated he has to deal with).  These features already exist in the model and you are just being REDUNDANT.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Scott said RDD is "open to interpretation".  Again, this can't be further from the truth.  To make such a statement is to prove that one really doesn't understand the process.  People that understand this process clearly understand that there is NO interpretation of a properly executed RDD.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    That's all I'm trying to correct.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    To show that I'm wrong, one must:

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    1.  Show that a 3D CAD model would not be admissible in court in conjunction with a RDD, assuming that there is any possibility of going to court.  To accept bad parts with no QC would probably just make you look like a fool in court.  So the question is really not is a CAD model admissible in court, but rather is your procurement process acceptable and properly protect the corporation's interests.

                                                                                                    2.  Show that a RDD is somehow "incomplete" just because it's not 100% dimensioned.

                                                                                                    3.  Show that an RDD is somehow incapable of fully limiting vendor interpretation.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    the bottom line is if you like doing unnecessary work because it makes you happy, then who am I to stand in the way of your bliss?  But that aside, let's have an honest discussion.  If you haven't used this process for 20 years, then maybe find out all the facts before you attack.

                                                                                          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                            Paul Salvador

                                                                                            ..3D model always supercedes, unless otherwise noted:... (and there is where the vendor may have an excuse)... so.. the drawing should say,..  (imho)

                                                                                            1. THIS DRAWING IS A SUPPLEMENT TO THE 3D DATABASE FILENAME "XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX".

                                                                                            FEATURE AND PRODUCTION TOOLING INFORMATION SHALL BE DERIVED FROM THE DATABASE.

                                                                                            ALL DIMENSIONS SHOWN ARE FOR PART INSPECTION/QUOTATION PURPOSES ONLY.

                                                                                            IN THE EVENT OF A CONFLICT BETWEEN THE DATABASE AND THIS DRAWING, THE DATABASE

                                                                                            SHALL GOVERN UNLESS SPECIFICALLY NOTED OTHERWISE.

                                                                                              • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                Jeff Mowry

                                                                                                Correct---this is how I do it as well.  The 3D CAD data is the ultimate governing mechanism, since the 2D drawings merely reference (and are driven by) the 3D CAD data.  Notes to this effect on the 2D drawings are made, as Paul mentioned.

                                                                                                 

                                                                                                For prismatic parts, fully-dimensioned 2D prints make sense.  For the swoopy stuff I design, no way---completely impractical, and perhaps impossible.  I work with splines and free-form surfaces derived from splines all the time, often for plastic or die-cast parts.  There's no practical way to dimension such parts in 2D, so the CAD model stands on its own.  This is why most of my work won't fly with vendors who cannot adequately read 3D CAD files.

                                                                                                  • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                    Chris Clouser

                                                                                                    Jeff Mowry wrote:

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    Correct---this is how I do it as well. The 3D CAD data is the ultimate governing mechanism, since the 2D drawings merely reference (and are driven by) the 3D CAD data. Notes to this effect on the 2D drawings are made, as Paul mentioned.

                                                                                                     

                                                                                                    For prismatic parts, fully-dimensioned 2D prints make sense. For the swoopy stuff I design, no way---completely impractical, and perhaps impossible. I work with splines and free-form surfaces derived from splines all the time, often for plastic or die-cast parts. There's no practical way to dimension such parts in 2D, so the CAD model stands on its own. This is why most of my work won't fly with vendors who cannot adequately read 3D CAD files.

                                                                                                    Exactly!  It's funny how people's brains work.  I say something that they have NEVER considered or attempted and I'm the bad guy.  And here's others doing it every day with NO issues.

                                                                                                      • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                        Ryan McVay

                                                                                                        There is one component that is missing from this conversation and that would be the legal issues and implications of the partial detailed drawings and such. What is going to be your legal defense in a court of law where you are being held liable for damages. Drawings are considered legal documents. I've yet to hear of legal case that allows just a 3D model to stand on its own merit. If so, you can be guaranteed that the 3D model is being controlled by locked down data management system with full traceability. If you are not living that lifestyle then you are taking on some serious liabilities with "guesswork" in your manufacturing processes.

                                                                                                          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                            Paul Salvador

                                                                                                            Darn Lawyers! 

                                                                                                            • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                              Chris Clouser

                                                                                                              Ryan, I don't see it as a problem.

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              "partial detailed" is misleading.  The part is ENTIRELY detailed as it is based on drawing dimensions AND 3D CAD.  NOTHING is left to the imagination.  Nothing at all is open to interpretation if done correctly.  And trust me, the projects I was working on, into the tens of millions of dollars, these understood ALL the legal implications and had no problem with the process.

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              Yes, there would be some issue with chain of custody should the model be altered.  But, you're saying a drawing can't be altered?  The same issue will apply to both.

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              Do you recollect any case recently where a drawing has been submitted in court?  I'm thinking this is getting very theoretical.

                                                                                                        • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                          Chris Clouser

                                                                                                          Paul Salvador wrote:

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          ..3D model always supercedes, unless otherwise noted:... (and there is where the vendor may have an excuse)... so.. the drawing should say,.. (imho)

                                                                                                          1. THIS DRAWING IS A SUPPLEMENT TO THE 3D DATABASE FILENAME "XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX".

                                                                                                          FEATURE AND PRODUCTION TOOLING INFORMATION SHALL BE DERIVED FROM THE DATABASE.

                                                                                                          ALL DIMENSIONS SHOWN ARE FOR PART INSPECTION/QUOTATION PURPOSES ONLY.

                                                                                                          IN THE EVENT OF A CONFLICT BETWEEN THE DATABASE AND THIS DRAWING, THE DATABASE

                                                                                                          SHALL GOVERN UNLESS SPECIFICALLY NOTED OTHERWISE.

                                                                                                          Thanks Paul.  Looks like you don't like sitting around dimensioning drawings all day either!

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Scott?  Does this make any sense to you?

                                                                                                        • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                          Chris Clouser

                                                                                                          Basically, it's silly to dimension every nook and cranny. 

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          it's 2017.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          I was doing art to part 20 years ago.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          At Northrop, we were at around $100,000 per drawing back in the early 2000's.  Projects had hundreds of drawings.  The review process was torture.  I joked often that there was more black on the page than white.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          We implemented reduced dimension drawing protocol and shaved the majority of that unnecessary expense off.  I forget the final savings, but it was MAJOR.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Imagine a machined part.  Unless everything is GD&T, and unless you are using a shop that actually understands GD&T, which even the ones that say they do don't, your basically wasting a whole bunch of time dimensioning every detail.  Your title block has a minimum tolerance.  Your machine shop will be working off of the 3D CAD file.  If they are competent, they will hold .005" all day long.  ONE NOTE IN THE NOTE BLOCK ELIMINATES ALL DIMENSIONS that are not HIGH TOLERANCE.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Only dimension the features tighter than +/- .005 (or .010 or whatever is your standard).

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          I've had many complex aerospace mechanisms manufactured with... wait for it...

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          NO DRAWINGS AT ALL!!

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Dimensions are dollars.  They cost money to put on the paper.  They add sheets.  They add cost in manufacturing, believe it or not, because a clean drawing with only the important dimensions and all others called out off the 3D model WILL COST LESS.  Its a fact.  The same part on two sheets instead of one costs more.  When a job shop quotes, THEY WANT SIMPLE.   Simple means less risk.  Lots of dimensions all over the place looks risky.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Sheetmetal and weldments are similar in ways to a machined part.  If you design right, you don't need to dimension every little feature.  Sheetmetal patterns will be burned from a DXF.  It is what it is.  Reference dimensions and holes can be dimensioned on flat patterns, but dimensioning the entire profile is a waste of time.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          I save my clients SOOOOOO much money by understanding all of this.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          And now, the part can contain all the information that typically comes on a drawing, so even that proves my point.  The paper is slowly DISSOLVING!

                                                                                                            • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                              Glenn Schroeder

                                                                                                              Chris,

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              In some industries I'm sure there is no need for Drawings, but that doesn't apply to all of them.  I'm not just modeling products that will be cast or machined.  I'm modeling welded components, and concrete (with rebar), and guardrails, and roadside signs, etc.  Some installations are several hundred feet long.  I don't see how I'll ever get away from paper.  Are you suggesting I hand a construction crew a laptop or tablet with my 3d model on it and say "Here. Go build this."?

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              And this isn't only for fabrication and construction.  The day may come when we'll no longer be printing hard copies of test reports, but I doubt it.

                                                                                                                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                  Chris Clouser

                                                                                                                  Glenn Schroeder wrote:

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Chris,

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  In some industries I'm sure there is no need for Drawings, but that doesn't apply to all of them. I'm not just modeling products that will be cast or machined. I'm modeling welded components, and concrete (with rebar), and guardrails, and roadside signs, etc. Some installations are several hundred feet long. I don't see how I'll ever get away from paper. Are you suggesting I hand a construction crew a laptop or tablet with my 3d model on it and say "Here. Go build this."?

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  And this isn't only for fabrication and construction. The day may come when we'll no longer be printing hard copies of test reports, but I doubt it.

                                                                                                                  Almost everything I do is a welded structure, and I use as few dimensions as possible.  Tab and slot helps eliminate dimensions in many instances.  Fabricators understand tabs and slots better than dimensions.  Our plasma guy is getting used to eDrawings so he can now answer many of the questions production has so that they don't have to come to manufacturing as much.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Obviously we're discussing the use of CAM to manufacture our designs, but just because your industry isn't using it yet, don't be surprised when they do.  I'm sure you've seen the 3D printing of concrete structures.  And just imagine if your crew could leverage your 3D files on a tablet to fabricate your project with just a bare minimum of paper.  With the right viewer and critical tolerance inputs from you, I don't see why it isn't possible.  Once more and more fabricators get the taste for 3D, I think they will demand it.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Maybe once voice interaction gets better.  "what is the dimensions of the rebar?"  "what is the spacing?"  "what type of concrete?"  etc.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  Maybe this will all be solved with 3DExperience.

                                                                                                                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                  Ryan McVay

                                                                                                                  Hey, don't say that so loud. You might be surprised, but papyrus is still used to day- granted remote swampy locations- but still used.

                                                                                                                  • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                    Paul Salvador

                                                                                                                    Chris,.. you reminded me of a contract I had many moons ago,... which became my standard.

                                                                                                                    My clients client.. wanted to have 2D drawings for each prt/asm,... so, I read their contract and it said nothing about details or requirements per any standard...  And, I was asked to quote my estimate for the time/cost .. I have always/intentionally factored 2-4X more time/cost because I do not like doing drawings because I think they are in general, useless.

                                                                                                                    .. and, in that case, I factored in ~4X.    My client asked.. if I could reduce the cost/time?..   I said,.. sure, I'll reduce it by 50% if I only have to place in the orthographic views overall size and some critical mate dims and material/finish notes.   Their customer had no problem with those PDF drawings as is/was.   Those drawings we great for rfq's.. but were never used for my parts fabrication, only identification/tracking.    To this day,.. that is about as much as I will do with drawings or add a matching eDrawing if asked,... it just works.

                                                                                                            • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                              Neville Williams

                                                                                                              Yes, thanks, this just further proves my point, your shop doesn't need:

                                                                                                              Do they need unlimited features in the tree on a part?

                                                                                                              Do they need surfacing?

                                                                                                              Do they need unlimited parts in an assembly?

                                                                                                              Do they need weldments?

                                                                                                              Do they need sheetmetal?.....

                                                                                                              Furthermore, the presence of all these just obfuscates the primary functionality for uninitiated users.

                                                                                                               

                                                                                                              Edrawings could do this if DS got their act together, but it is becoming a bit of a joke now.

                                                                                                              Long discussion on this here

                                                                                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                      Steven Smith

                                                                                                      Obviously, you have never worked for a sub-contracting company.

                                                                                                      I've seen companies using open source software to manipulate models because they cannot justify the costs of a full blown package.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      Other companies have no justification to buy Solidworks, as there are alternative software like Radan and Trumpf TruTops that can manipulate the models but, these packages also have the added capability of CNC programming for lasers, punches and brake presses etc. The problem can lead to compatibility issues, hence the requirement for a 'dumb'd' down or core software.

                                                                                                        • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                          Craig Schultz

                                                                                                          Let's not pretend Radan is cheaper or even in the same ball park as SW on the sheet metal side of it.  Radan's great for programming and is very flexible in that part of the overall CAD/CAM arena.  But a modeler it is not.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          I will say 2 words about Trumpf's support: not there

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          That's how I started working with Radan.

                                                                                                          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                            Christian Chu

                                                                                                            I want to mention here again, yes, I never work as a sub-contractor who pays the software cost from my pocket but I DO care about the cost

                                                                                                            Do you have any idea how many times the cost of the software I heard from the meeting - more than you can imagine - it's part of eng. budget and takes a portion  of my paycheck too.

                                                                                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                      Steven Smith

                                                                                                      I'm not particularly a fan of being in the cloud either but, saying that; we need to move with the times.

                                                                                                      I'm also keen to see a more affordable package for people *leaving* university or people who are looking to learn the software outwith of being an employee for a company that can afford the software.

                                                                                                       

                                                                                                      Not all people who use the software are students but there are some who are keen on personal development or, who come from an trade engineering background with no vocational qualification willing to progress into design/office roles.

                                                                                                        • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                          J. Mather

                                                                                                          Steven Smith wrote:

                                                                                                          I'm also keen to see a more affordable package for people learning university .....

                                                                                                          Did you miss a word in there somewhere?  I am having trouble understanding this sentence.

                                                                                                           

                                                                                                          Personally, I have no use for Fusion 360 in a college level curriculum of professional instruction as it is still in infancy - but I do not teach ID or CNC.  I need robust - professional level tools.  I do have to teach sheet metal, weldments, routed systems, motion analysis - everything students might encounter in mechanical design...  ... including, uhm, 2D detail drawings (try doing a few drawings in Fusion). 

                                                                                                      • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                        Francisco Martínez

                                                                                                        The first time I heard about cloud based SW was in 2011, My teacher claimed all cad will be cloud based soon.

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        It is 2017 and I am barley seeing this trial. I would not completely rule this out but I do think it has some time before it is a reality that functions properly.

                                                                                                         

                                                                                                        It would be nice if they fixed all the bugs in current installed versions before moving on to new and better packages, but thats just wishful thinking.

                                                                                                          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                            J. Mather

                                                                                                            Francisco Martínez wrote:

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            ......before moving on to new and better packages,....

                                                                                                             

                                                                                                            Does your company have an R&D program - or do they wait until nobody is purchasing your product before figuring out how to react?

                                                                                                            Or will they simply shut the doors when the customers have moved on?

                                                                                                              • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                Jim Steinmeyer

                                                                                                                I think there is a difference between making a product production ready before rushing to the next next new thing, and stopping R&D until a product has completely run it's life cycle. Seems like the SW leaders have product ADHD.

                                                                                                                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                  Chris Clouser

                                                                                                                  Is it wrong that he thinks that SolidWorks should fix what they already sold us before swimming out into deeper water?

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  It has nothing to do with R&D.  They continue rolling out new product without resolving known issues on current releases.

                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                  ONE AND TWO (AND THREE)

                                                                                                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                      Dave Bear

                                                                                                                      Just to add to what Chris has highlighted here, if Dassault can't debug or QA what they sell as new versions or SP's then how can they assure what they will have on the cloud will be so fool proof that it will ALWAYS be accessible to the customer and ONLY to the customer. In reality, they haven't done too good a job of promoting customer satisfaction by way of providing more emphasis on troubleshooting than creating half-cocked enhancements have they?

                                                                                                                      A slight little 'bug' in a cloud SP could render your access useless, then what? Are Dassault or SolidWorks going to handout compensation payments to those companies affected.............. I think not!

                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                      If SolidWorks was rock-solid in it's current platform and at the forefront of CAD software, well then maybe you might trust it enough to go to the cloud.

                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                      Don't get me wrong, I'm far from anti-SolidWorks, in fact I love using it (SW2016 SP3), no issues. But from where I sit, I can see this product having such a better reputation in the market place if they only concentrated on other areas. The reason they don't, or won't is simple. Keep the glitches in, promise a resolution in the next SP or the SP after that, you as the customer keep paying your subscription in the hope of getting that resolve. Meanwhile, in the SP's you've received, there's been some little enhancements, these now have a few little bugs or glitches in them. So, you bitch and complain, send files to your VAR, wait for a resolution to come out in the next SP or the SP after that and the circle continues. All the while a certain bank account is getting healthier and healthier whilst your getting more frustrated. Is this going to be any different with the cloud? Will bugs and glitches have MORE or LESS impact?

                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                      It's a very dangerous place I think!

                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                      Dave.

                                                                                                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                      Francisco Martínez

                                                                                                                      it was just a freindly jab, but are you saying that you have not been impacted by a software bug in sw ever?

                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                      Im not opposed to the new cloud system in general, I would just like less bugs in the current software.

                                                                                                                  • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                    Timothy Taby

                                                                                                                    I'm not s huge fan of the cloud, we have seen in the past what can happen when your data is on the cloud via the leaks from Apple's cloud storage.  Most companies that have propriety documents, especially product models and drawings won't be easily swayed too have them out in the cloud.  Also, can you imagine the performance on a large assembly while issuing commands over the internet?

                                                                                                                      • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                        Neville Williams

                                                                                                                        Or when it stops working - chaos.

                                                                                                                        Why do people think it is the way to go - far from it.

                                                                                                                        Image result for the cloud joke

                                                                                                                          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                            Jeff Mowry

                                                                                                                            The last time I had a "real" job at a cube farm, one of the mirrored RAID drives on the server went down.  The server/IT guy came in and replaced the drive.  He accidentally reformatted the remaining good drive instead of the bad drive.

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            "You lost our data center?"  "That's one way to look at it."

                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                            Good times.

                                                                                                                            • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                              Chris Clouser

                                                                                                                              Ha!  This was the IT manager at the last company I worked at.  Of course, they laid off our divisional guy that was a beast.  One of the best IT guys ever.

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              Meanwhile this idiot at corporate has the nerve to call me up and chew me out because our implementation of Adept PDM was a total nightmare.  Something I had been warning everybody about for about a year!  And now it's my fault that it's not working?  Now I hear that 5 years later they are switching to EPDM, which is what I fervently recommended in dozens of emails with lists of dozens and dozens of reasons!

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              I had calculated that our division was probably losing around a quarter million a year in lost productivity due to Adept.  So on a company-wide scale, who knows.  But it takes this guy five years to figure it out!

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              then I heard he deleted all email on the servers older than three months!!  This is a company that could be sued as their products are safety related.  So he's deleted thousands of relevant legal documents that could possibly vindicate the company in a lawsuit.  Pure Wally.

                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                              And he still has a job!!  That's how ignorant CEO's can be!  They think he's actually competent.

                                                                                                                                • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                  Dennis Dohogne

                                                                                                                                  Chris, that e-mail deletion policy is often inspired by the other perspective.  Instead of keeping e-mails that could vindicate them they would rather delete ones that could convict them.  It even took care of your evidence of what you had been advocating for, didn't it?

                                                                                                                                   

                                                                                                                                  I'm not saying I agree with their policy, just looking at it from another perspective.

                                                                                                                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                      Chris Clouser

                                                                                                                                      Dennis Dohogne wrote:

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                      Chris, that e-mail deletion policy is often inspired by the other perspective. Instead of keeping e-mails that could vindicate them they would rather delete ones that could convict them. It even took care of your evidence of what you had been advocating for, didn't it?

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                      I'm not saying I agree with their policy, just looking at it from another perspective.

                                                                                                                                      That would of course be possible criminal negligence if the case.  Their own attorneys told them not to do it AIUI.

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                      the kicker is that they didn't help the employees archive necessary emails, such as vendor correspondence.  I would be screwed with tens of thousands of emails between myself and hundreds of vendors gone.  Much technical information is stored in these emails as I'm sure many of you can say as well!!

                                                                                                                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                      Ryan McVay

                                                                                                                                      I'd skip EPDM as well. That's another legacy 3rd-part purchase by SW that you can only guess is going away. The big push the last few years has been an attempt to capture the SW community before they figure out there are much better tools available to them!

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                      Go with a system that was really designed to work in a multi-site/multi-CAD environment. Teamcenter! You betcha!

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                      EPDM is still way to clunky and heaven forbid if you double click twice..kiss your session good-bye! ANy either you have to have a good programmer on staff or rely heavily on VAR to do your workflow tasks. Of course these are just my opinions- but I've used both tools!

                                                                                                                                      • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                        Jeff Mowry

                                                                                                                                        Chris, that's why I can't have a real job anymore.

                                                                                                                                  • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                    Jim Steinmeyer

                                                                                                                                    Interestingly I remember having this same type of discussion about Pro-E and SW about 15 years ago. Pro-E was the bug robust program that could do what ever you needed to do and I loved using it but you $paid$ for it. SW on the other hand could handle the more basic stuff well and had the ability to work around some of the other things but was substantially cheaper so everyone could afford it. I used about 30% of Pro-E's capabilities but had the horsepower to reach for the stars when I needed to. When I switched to SW there were lots of times I would say "I used to be able to do this but..." Now days which platform has more users?

                                                                                                                                    The cloud may be the coming thing and the price point will play a big part of it when it does. Maybe a better option would be to sell the stripped down version that doesn't require the cloud. I am still opposed to the cloud for practical reasons, potential lack of internet access being a big one, but it probably will have it's place.

                                                                                                                                    • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                      Jeff Mowry

                                                                                                                                      Actually, SolidWorks announced their intention to do exactly this.  When was that?  2009 or 2010?  Something like that.  Big, problematic backlash from the users at the time.  Epic.  For good reason, too.

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                      First problem is that this was handled poorly by the bigwigs and marketing people, since it came across as though cloud storage of files might be the only available option.  Military and other guarded IP design was immediately unable to use SW under those circumstances.  Poor Internet areas were another problem with this model.  Going of subscription and having no (or ambiguous) means of retaining files was another.

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                      Since then, sure, lots of things have changed.  But not for everyone.  I trust the cloud as long as everything done on the cloud is OK to give away publicly.  But for the inventive IP stuff I'm always working on?  No dice.

                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                                                                      As an aside, I've done a lot of computer fixing for a lot of people.  I'm astounded with what I've seen in terms of worms, malware, rootkits, etc. and the creative (destructive) way these things can alter/funnel internet traffic, log keys, alter/delete files, etc.  Ain't no way I'd trust the cloud for sensitive IP files among the masses.  No way.

                                                                                                                                      • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                        Tom Gagnon

                                                                                                                                        Others have said most of what I have to say, and I have one thing to add.

                                                                                                                                        Since networked files corrupt with a mere blip of connectivity issues, I can only imagine that it'd be far worse with cloud files.

                                                                                                                                        • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                          Gary Lucas

                                                                                                                                          I'm old enough to remember 'vaporware', which apparently they renamed.  Just put a fast SSD drive in my computer and the SW performance improvement was huge.  Am I going to get that on the cloud?  If you only model parts I can see how that works.  I model entire waste treatment plants, thousands of parts and assemblies.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          There are two kinds of computer users, those that have not lost their data and still have jobs, and those wishing they had not lost their data.  I am more paranoid about it than most, hence I have lots of backups in lots of different ways.

                                                                                                                                           

                                                                                                                                          At my last job I heard we were getting a new server.  I had backed up every job I had ever done at the company to a portable hard drive and to CDs for each job taken off site.  They planned on using the backup tapes to load the new server.  The backup tapes were toast, all of them!  I was the only guy in the company that would actually still have a job if the server hard drive had crashed!  The new system they installed was interesting. USB backup hard drives for each day of the week.  There was one little problem.  They wrote over the daily drives every week.  I frequently went out of town to job sites for a couple weeks at a time.  So if I didn't notice something missing it would be over written before I got back!

                                                                                                                                          • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                            David Ouellette

                                                                                                                                            In SWW2014 there was a demo of NVIDEA system running SW and being accesses by a 8in tablet. It looked to be be running (tailored) smooth. I don't know what the size of the model was. I looked into it a little. It was powered by a virtual computer with the Graphics being handled by a top of the line GPUs and gobs of memory. The cost of two seats was ~20K each (full seat) with the hardware. A little pricey. However, If you needed a limited feature set, or needed workers to be highly mobile, this would be a good solution. There is also network speed concerns. I'm not really convinced, yet.

                                                                                                                                              • Re: Solidworks in the cloud.
                                                                                                                                                Ryan McVay

                                                                                                                                                Yeah, the Surface Pro devices kinda put a big kink into the CAD in the cloud message. Why mess with browser capabilities (ask what happened to PTC and Wildfire running on Chrome) and data transfers and your data plans when you can run local on a mobile device. You can hit the cloud for license files or user profiles (like Solid Edge does) and then run local on the hardware.

                                                                                                                                                I have been fortunate enough to be running two difference CAD systems (a mid-range and high-end system) on my Surface Book with Performance Base. So far so good!