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Utility of Layout vs a sketch?

Question asked by Dwight Livingston on Mar 3, 2008
Latest reply on Apr 29, 2008 by Sean Phillips

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Would someone explain how to use the layout feature in Assembly, in terms what special things it can do that a sketch cannot? I've used sketches for top down design, but I figure there must be some additional capabilities in Layout.

Thanks

Dwight

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Steve Calvert Mar 3, 2008 4:26 PM
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Dwight, I'm trying to figure out the same question. I have read through the help pages and in Matt's Bible and I can't seem to find another method other than using it for assembly level component placement. I'd like to find a way to use one for some assemblies we have that use several of the same components but are placed in different locations or multiple times.

Steve
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- Rhett Rathbone @ Steve Calvert on Mar 3, 2008 4:56 PM
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  Dwight,
  
  Layouts are the 'new' term for Assembly Sketch Skeletons. If you have used Assembly skeleton sketches in the past it should be very similar, in that the assembly sketch can drive part sketches further down the tree. This is an extremely powerful tool as it brings the true parametric features to an assembly. Layouts brings the advantage that the sketch is always kept at the top of the tree, as it should be. HOWEVER, there is a caveat! You cannot edit this sketch from a higher level assembly. For example, Assemblies A, B, & C. if you build assembly 'B' w/ a Layout sketch to drive part 'C' all is good, but if you want to go up a level, have 'A' drive 'B' and in turn drive 'C', it is not possible. Assembly 'A' cannot drive 'B' if it is done w/ a Layout sketch. For it to be successful the Layout sketch must be at the TOP level assembly.
  
  So long story short, good in concept but short on delivery. Perhaps next release they will have the kinks worked out on this so that it truly becomes a useful feature.
  
  Thx,
  
  Rhett
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  - Dwight Livingston @ Rhett Rathbone on Mar 3, 2008 6:35 PM
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    Thanks for the replies. I guess I'm not making my question clear. I've used sketches before in an assembly as layout sketches. They work nicley. Now SW has this new feature called Layout. I'd like to know what it offers *beyond* just using sketches.
    
    I tried the Layout feature. It made a bunch of mates that I couldn't edit. It seemed I could only make one sketch on one plane in Layout mode, though maybe I didn't work it hard enough. It didn't put anything in the Feature Tree except the mates. I just haven't found anything about Layout mode that looks more useful than good old sketches. I know I must be missing something.
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Kelvin Lamport Mar 3, 2008 10:48 PM
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I don't know about any up-sides, but a downside is that the polygon and ellipse tools cannot be used.
Also I haven't found a way to create a Layout on anything but the Front plane.

I have no problem making multiple Blocks in a Layout though or did you mean actual separate sketches?
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Kelvin Lamport Mar 3, 2008 10:49 PM
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Another downside is not being able to turn off that damn grid.
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Matt Lombard Mar 3, 2008 11:05 PM
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Dwight,

I think part of the intention with the new "Layout" is that you can use them to create incontext parts directly, without starting a new part first.

Rhett must be a Pro/E user. I love how he used one Pro/E term (skeleton) to define another.

I wish SW would avoid using existing terms to name new functions. "Layout" is already the familiar technique of sketching in an assembly. Now they have commandeered the name for a specific kind of sketching in assembly. Sounds like it is already causing confusion.
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- Dwight Livingston @ Matt Lombard on Mar 4, 2008 12:03 PM
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  Thanks again for the comments. I will ignore Layout mode until future version, when I hear that it has some use.
  
  Matt - slightly off topic, but I agree about the naming thing. Another, closely related problem with naming that I see, is the SW habit of brand naming features that should just be generic, raising them like a prominent wrinkle when they should just lie smoothly in the fabric of the program. Stuff like "SketchXpert" and "Instant3D." I'm sure the development team liked having a name, and maybe Marketing feels that the special name gives them something to sell. To me, though, it gets in the way, makes it harder to learn. My first reaction to seeing a new feature name is "oh crap, something more I have to learn." When it turns out to be a new take on the same old thing - particularly a new same old thing running parallel to the old same old thing - it clutters the program. I think they should be working on having fewer features that do more, not more features that do less.
  
  Finished ranting.
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  - Mauricio Martinez-Saez @ Dwight Livingston on Mar 6, 2008 7:24 AM
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    I have play with the "Layout" feature.... in fact is the same dog as the 3D Sketch (where for some unkown reason you can not use the Ellipse or the Parabola tool either)... one of the "improvements" is the ability to sketch on predefined planes or to exit the Layout, define a plane using geometric entities from inside the layout and then return to the "layout" editing mode and continue defining geometry using the newly defined plane... as well as some other minor improvements... one of them is the facility to make "blocks" using layout entities...
    
    All of that can be done with a combination of "related" 2D sketches and planes, or with the 3D sketch (the 2D Sketch way in my modest oppinion will produce a more solid geometry). We design all our work on Top-Down for years and in our oppinion the "Layout" gadget do not add any real functionality to the program. In fact one of the things it do is to create a large amount of "mates" that in our oppinion will degrade the performance of the model....
    
    For us, the 2D and 3D functionality is all we need (since the Layout do exactly the same under another name)... perhaps SW can expend some time improving the "Rebuild" process (which do not work properly in large top-down assemblies) or improving the functionality of the Design Tables so they can be used to drive variables at all levels of a Top-Down assembly without the need to open each component that have a design table and open the design table in order to update any external data links and perform a "global" rebuild of a large top-down parametric assembly.
    
    Any way is a nuew function that look nice on the menu and as part of the CommandManager....
    
    If someone knows if in fact this "Layout" feature gives any real advantage for people doing Top-down Models, we will appreciate the news....
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    - Daan Haeyen @ Mauricio Martinez-Saez on Apr 24, 2008 4:23 PM
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      Hi, isn't it so that with this layout mode, you can directly move the parts you created, while using a normal sketch, you have to be in sketch edit mode?
      
      Daan
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      - Mauricio Martinez-Saez @ Daan Haeyen on Apr 24, 2008 6:27 PM
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        You can move parts with and sketch also, all you need is to select a dimension and change it and rebuild, or drive the sketch from a DT, etc.
        
        Try to do a Polygon, Elipse, Parabola, Split and Entity, Offset and Entity, etc. on Layout mode.... Those are not available on Layout mode.
        
        The issue is... "is there any advantage on the Layout mode over using Sketch mode? do that advantage justify a "new functionality"? Is this really a usefull new functionality? or it is just somethig placed there to make the interface more "familiar" to users of other applications that have a "true" Layout mode? (PTC for example)
        
        Now if there is a real advantage added with this functionality everithing is OK... but if not... time and effort will be better expended on fixing some of the bugs or on adding some usefull functionality.
        
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        Daan Haeyen @ Mauricio Martinez-Saez on Apr 25, 2008 8:36 AM
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        M. G. Martinez wrote:
        
        You can move parts with and sketch also, all you need is to select a dimension and change it and rebuild, or drive the sketch from a DT, etc.
        
        With layout you can directly move the parts. In my opinion, this is a huge advantage.
        
        Daan
        
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        Mauricio Martinez-Saez @ Daan Haeyen on Apr 25, 2008 9:41 PM
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        Maybe it is an advantage... but first I need to understad what you mean with "moving" parts... since for parts that move (a part of a mechanism, such as the moving parts of an engine) you can simulate full motion without the Layout sketch since several versions ago... In fact we use motion analysis since 2006 using solidWorks and COSMOS Motion.
        
        If by "moving" you mean "change the fix position" of a part from one place on the assembly to other, there are ways to do that with total dimensional integrity (which is not to select the part and drag it with the mouse). If you reffer to model restrained movement mechanisms such as the boom of a crane, etc., that is done with blocks (not a new feature).
        
        Please explain what you mean with "move" a part... even beter post a small example... since realy I want to see if there is a real use for the Layout (other that to overload the top level of the assembly with a large number of "mates" a real killer of application performance, make a large complex Layout and take a look at the "mates").
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        Daan Haeyen @ Mauricio Martinez-Saez on Apr 26, 2008 6:47 PM
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        Ok, I'll try to explain. You can make a normal assembly sketch, and use sketch blocks to make a moving mechanism. You can then make parts from the sketch blocks. These parts are fixed to the sketch blocks. Now, if you want to move your mechanism, you have to enter the assembly sketch and move it there, exit the sketch and rebuilt. Or you can make a new assembly using the parts with normal mates, a lot of work.
        
        With the new layout mode, you can make a moving mechanism using sketch blocks. When you make parts from them, you can choose if you want to be able to move the part normal to the block (project) or not. So you can very easily make a part that is not in the same plane as the sketch block. And, if you made parts, you can now drag them around with the mouse, and the function of the mechanism still works. I admit that it makes a lot of mates though.
        
        Am I right here, or saying something very stupid? I have the book "advanced assembly modelling", and this is a specific example of the layout mode. This mode is specifically made for moving mechanisms. For a non-moving assembly, a normal layout sketch works just fine.
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        Mauricio Martinez-Saez @ Daan Haeyen on Apr 27, 2008 8:25 AM
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        Ok, I understand now what you mean.... however you can do the same without the Layout... if you know how to model the part inside the assembly, and use referencial geometry sketches, particularly if you use motion simulation, which is the correct way to make a mechanism move (not by draging it with the mouse, while you can also configure the assembly to be draged by the mouse).
        
        The ability to model mechanisms that move is not something new that can be done thaks to the addition of the Layout Sketch.
        
        If I am not mistaking... I believe that the "Layout Sketch is something added to the application to "mimic" a funtionality of other CAD applications (such as Pro-E) so users of those applications found a familiar fucntion in SW.
        
        The purpose "purpose" of the Layout functionality (read the Help) is mainly for Top-Down modeling (not for motion simulation), however, as any new product design engineer, I am doing Parametric Top-Down design since the first real parametric CAD hit the market (1989) and before that time I do a lot of non-parametric Top-Down modeling with 3D CAD (I start drawing lines with computers back in 1975). So I believe I know how to model Top-Down even with SolidWorks which do not gives much information on the subject since they encorage Bottom-Up design a lot.
        
        Bottom-Up modeling is normally the way to go when you model Out-of-the-Shelf Parts (things that you purchase or that are allready designed and do not change and you incorporate into the assembly (such as bearings, bolts, motors, etc.). Parts that you model as an stand alone part (a CAD Block) and then add to an assembly using mates.
        
        In product design (where you design from scratch every part of the assembly) the best way is Top-Down, since you create an assembly of "parametric" parts related to referencial geometry (no mates at all) which can be changed in dimensions, position, etc. as the referencia geometry changes. This is needed since thru the design process you may need to change the parts several times as the design of the entire assembly is done and parts relate to other or as a result of the analysis done with the CAE (FEA) modules in order to optimize and validate the design (since during that process parts may need to change in thickness, size, configuration, etc. in oreder to achieve structural and mechanical integrity and reduce weight and material utilization).
        
        I will take a closer look to the Layout... but I must mention that we are doing 100% parametric top-down models (some of them with motion) with SolidWorks for over 2 years and we never need it.
        
        M. G. Martinez-Saez
        Director of Engineering & New Product Development
        IMSA Group
        Monterrey, N.L.
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Sean Phillips Apr 29, 2008 3:03 PM
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I also use top down only when designing an assembly, and use 2d sketches to control all my parts. I tried using the layout sketch, but found it crippled in functionality compared to the simple 2d sketches those of us who do skeleton modeling already used. I dont see any advantage, and i do say many limitations.

I also agree that their time would be better served as was so succinctly phrased above. I'll cut and paste from M. G. Martinez-Saez's post as this is probably my single largest gripe with the 'parametric' aspect of solidworks

""For us, the 2D and 3D functionality is all we need (since the Layout do exactly the same under another name)... perhaps SW can expend some time improving the "Rebuild" process (which do not work properly in large top-down assemblies) or improving the functionality of the Design Tables so they can be used to drive variables at all levels of a Top-Down assembly without the need to open each component that have a design table and open the design table in order to update any external data links and perform a "global" rebuild of a large top-down parametric assembly. ""
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