12 Replies Latest reply on Dec 14, 2007 1:10 AM by Charles Culp

    hide/show edges

    Mark Kaiser
      I have attached a jpeg of a drawing that I have manually shown edges on that should show up hidden (dashed line font), they show up with a solid line font.

      I was wondering if other people experience the same issue.

      Here's what gets me to this issue... I model fairly complex geometry that once you make a drawing of it, if you have the tangent lines turned on, it gets too messy. I have too many fillets to have tangent lines turned on. So I turn off tangent lines, crank my document resolution all the way up, and start manually showing edges. This works fine for 'shown' edges, but for 'hidden' edges it does not.

      I know some of you are probably going to tell me to make a configuration without the fillets and make a drawing of that, but that just sounds like too much work, I'd rather not have another config to take care of. One could argue that making another config (w/o fillets) is easier and quicker than manually hide/show edges, but then you also have a drawing that is not of the actual part! I like to have drawings of actual parts.

      I'm really looking to see how many others have the problem I do with hide/show hidden egdes in drawings, and if there are any other views on it. If it's really a problem, someone needs to point it out.
        • hide/show edges
          Charles Culp
          I will not show tangent edges unless it is an isometric view. I normally include an isometric view of parts that are complex or have many fillets. For those I will turn on tangent edges with font (shh, don't tell Eddie). For any view with dimensions on it, I just keep them hidden. In theory if I HAD to I would do what you did, which is manually turn them on.
            • hide/show edges
              Eddie Cyganik

              Charles,

              If you post it, I will see!

              Just kidding. The thing about tangent & hidden edges is that there are not any hard & fast rules. However, after reading the requirements of Engineering Drawing Practices, ASME Y14.100M and the "Fundamental Rules" in ASME Y14.5M, the following should be perfectly clear:

              A drawing shall stand alone, it shall be as clear and concise as possible and provide for one and only one interpretation.

              Knowing this, tangent edges should not be eliminated nor should they be left as is in any given drawing view. The display should be adjusted, view and/or drawing scale change should be considered and additional drawing views added in order to meet the requirements above.

              Pretty simple actually!
                • hide/show edges
                  Mark Kaiser
                  So from years of not having tangent edges, everyone has to get used to seeing all of these extra lines on their drawings and how to interpret them... I come from the practice of putting a line where two surfaces meet, ignoring the fillet between them. What was the term for that, projection? Using tangent edges gives me two lines, one at each edge of the fillet. How about just one line at the midpoint of the surface of the fillet? New option for tangent lines?

                  I know using tangent edges makes the drawing more descriptive of the actual part, but sometimes it does not leave it clear and concise, just too many lines.
                    • hide/show edges
                      Eddie Cyganik

                      Mark,

                      I do not know of any drafting class or course that teaches the student not to draw/display tangent edges. Even in my early days of creating drawings on a drafting board, tangent edges were always drawn to depict a part or assembly in the most descriptive manner. Blue print reading courses also address the issue of tangent edge display and their interpretation.

                      Another issue of treating tangent edges exclusively from view to view would be that this must be done consistently, not only from view to view but from from to drawing to drawing as well.

                      If SW were to consider John's and display types and yours too, then I predict we will be seeing tangent edge display errors all over the place in future versions. When we consider all that is wrong & all that requires improvement, I think SW has bigger fish to fry.

                      Of course, that's the way I see it. So blast away!
                        • hide/show edges
                          Mark Kaiser
                          I don't think I've ever been schooled on tangent edges (by a learning institution).

                          Eddie, you're telling me that you show every tangent line of every fillet? On all views? You've got to have some parts that are too complex for that to be clear. The guys on my shop floor would be scratching there heads all day long, probably some of my vendors also.

                          Appreciate all of the comments.
                      • hide/show edges
                        Charles Culp
                        *phew* good to know I'm legit. I guess I'm just breaking unwritten company policy. That's what's nice about unwritten policies...
                    • hide/show edges
                      John Burrill
                      I have also found that tangent edges do more to obfiscate a drawing view than clarify it.. There's the edge font option for the view, but that often looks worse and only adds to the confusion.
                      Having spent some time looking at the problem, I'd like to see another option for tangent edges: to display edges either tangent to the blend direction or orthogonal to it. I'll upload a picture showing what I mean.
                      Howver, for our drawings, I've discovered that a shaded-with edges view conveys the right information without all the extra linework. (Did you know that from 2007 SP2 forward, you can hide tangent edges in a shaded view?)
                      John
                        • hide/show edges
                          Mark Kaiser
                          We don't used shaded views in our company, I'm not sure if it would help when printing in only black and white, or copying a drawing with a shaded view to black and white. That'd be a totally different issue.

                          My main problem is when manually turning edges on using hide/show edges, is that they don't show up with the correct line font. Mine always show with the solid line font wether they are hidden lines or not.
                            • hide/show edges
                              John Burrill
                              It usually is a company thing, or a standards thing when someone doesn't want to print a shaded view. With reguard to your concerns about black-and-white printers: we print our stuff to HP5100 Laserjet monochrome printers and the shaded views look fine. copying is an issue, but only because most of our engineering staff don't know about the 'photo' setting on the copier.
                              Finally, I'd say shaded views merit some evaluation becuase your products are fairly complex. They do make the design easier to understand when you're developing it. Maybe it's a benefit you should pass on to manufacturing.
                              Oh, I loaded the idea I had for an alternate tangent-edge setting. I think I've got removing lines perpendicular to the fillet down, but parallel is a tougher beast to kill.
                              John
                            • hide/show edges
                              Eddie Cyganik

                              Well Folks, call me different but;

                              99% of our drawing views are set to display tangent edges.

                              To clarify:
                              -> Change the View Scale
                              -> Create Section Views
                              -> Create Detail Views
                              -> Remove most if not all hidden edges
                              -> Never change the display font of tangent edges. Phantom line font is just plain confusing.

                              Finally, like John has been suggesting, plot all your drawings with shading turned on.

                              I know we do. Our setting is: "Plot Shaded with Edges!".
                              ...that way all the tangent edges show up beautifully.
                                • hide/show edges
                                  Mark Kaiser
                                  I've attached a jpeg of an example of the type of parts that I deal with daily. It's of the same drawing view, the left view w/o tangent edges shown and the right view with tangent edges shown.

                                  Just for fun (since it seems I'm in the minority on showing tangent edges), which view would you all use if you were making the drawing? Why?

                                  Maybe it's time for my company to re-visit the issue.
                              • hide/show edges
                                Charles Culp
                                My parts are imported, and thus have 3-5 more tangent edges than yours, Mark. Except they aren't even really tangent. If I have the time to go in and hand-delete them, I do. I only keep tangents on when I think they are helpful. Normally they are just confusing with my drawings, much like yours.