50 Replies Latest reply on Jan 17, 2008 5:46 PM by John Kratz

    2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters

    Matt Lombard
      Ok, I'm missing something here. Where did the scroll bars and view port splitter bars go in 2008?
        • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
          Devon Sowell
          Windows, Viewport, Single View, Two View, Four View,...
          • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
            Jim Wilkinson
            It is true that the scollbars have been removed from the graphicsarea for SolidWorks 2008 as many users requested their removalsince they did not use them at all and they just took up graphicsspace.


            We are considering adding them back but I would like to hear moreabout the workflows where people need the scrollbars (John listsone below with dimensioning in drawings). An alternative is toimplement an "overview" window that we could give quickaccess to and allow the user to pin up. If you are notfamiliar with an overview window, it would be a small windowshowing the entire model/drawing and have a small translucent boxindicating the current area being viewed. You could "pan"the view by simply dragging the box around in the overview windowand you could change the zoom scale by resizing the box. The maingraphics window would update in real time as you are making theseadjustments. Would this be an acceptable or preferred approach?
              • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                Brian Cayer
                James, I think the overview window would be a plus, however I miss the split window.I have become accustomed to using it when working with complex assemblies with advanced mates. I control the motion from the full view and am able to view a closeup of the area of concern for development purposes. I hope you decide to bring it back.

                Best regards
                  • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                    Charley Leonard
                    I too would like to see the scroll bars come back, but I also like the sound of the overview window. Could there be a system option to have it either way?
                      • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                        Rich Osterreicher
                        Hi James,

                        I used the scroll bars while sketching in a part.
                        And often while looking a model over.
                        Also i used them a lot when setting the model position prior to a render.
                        Being able to pan it only straight right or left.. up or down.. Helped me adjust the position.. Once i positioned it, it's make a 'Render" view...

                        The Overview thing could be good in some cases.. I take it i'd be just like Acad's flyover feature that they've had for long time..

                        It'd be PERFECT if there were a simple setting in options..
                        Scrollbars on/off checkbox..
                        Overview on/off checkbox..

                        That's the only way you can please everyone..
                        GIVE USERS A CHOICE..
                          • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                            Mark Kaiser
                            I just upgraded to SW 2008 sp1.0.

                            No scroll bars, I used them all the time in sketches, parts, assemblies, etc... They didn't take up that much graphic space.

                            It would be nice to still have them.

                            I found from searching the forum (to see if scroll bars were really gone in 08) you can Control+MMB to pan, but I'd still like my old scroll bars back!

                      • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                        Gerald Davis
                        James -
                        I miss the scrollbars. I've used them to carefully pan the view as I watch and ponder the display looking for discontinuites in that which I have modeled. I've also used them to scroll the display during select (for dimensioning or mating).

                        The ctrl-mmb sort of works, but it isn't precise and my arthritic old hands protest after a few hours.

                        Give me the option to display the scrollbars or not. There's no need for the presence or absence of scrollbars to be hardcoded according to your preference or mine. Let the user control the interface.

                        I've used products with overview windows and they have their moments of merit. I'd like to assign that function to the magnifier button on my mouse to pop up the overview when (if) I want it.
                        • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                          Matt Lombard
                          Hold it, an overview window will take up more space than scroll bars?!?!? Plus, it won't fit in the interface as neatly as the scrollbars.


                          Just make a slider along side the window so only the 1/2" long slider is visible, not the entire column or row (transparent scrollbar area, opaque slider).... or make a hotkey to change the visibility of the scrollbars.... or any one of 100 different ideas you guys or us could come up with. Removing them is the wrong thing to do.

                          Why do I get the feeling this is going to go from bad to worse?
                            • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                              Rich Osterreicher
                              Just try using Acad's flyover.. Same thing.. They've had it for quite some time..
                              First couple times you use it.. Wow this is neat..
                              After a couple hours your attittude turns to .. Why is that thing always in the way..
                              And you'll turn it off, never to be be seen again... (KEY NOTE.. there is a CHOICE)

                              So, needless to say.. Acad has it.. Hardly anyone uses it because just like Matt mentions.. It DOES take up more spale than the scroll bars..

                              Only peeps i have ever known to actually use that funcionality are in the Civil crowd..
                              But whatever the case..
                              So figure half the W crowd wants scrollbars.. Other half doesn't..
                              WHY not simply have the Option/Choice.. Please Everyone...
                              Having the Overview available to those that want it would be great.. But Please don't Force it on everyone..
                                • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                  Daniel Eelman
                                  Since Jim asked, add my voice to those wanting to bring back an option for scroll bars. My most common usage is similar to Rich's. I will get a large assembly oriented the way I need it for a screen cap or render, but need to be zoomed in at certain points. With the scroll bars, I can stay at the same zoom level and orientation and just screen cap - slide up - screen cap - slide up - etc. Then I can past them together seamlessly in another application if I like.

                                  Some applications allow strictly horizontal or vertical panning by holding down the Shift key, but that would mean using Shift+Ctrl+MMB in SW.
                                    • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                      Toby Robinson
                                      I want the scroll bars back also. Just make an option to turn them on or off.
                                        • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                          Ed Richter
                                          Using the pan key certianly is more of a pain as ofte nthe model is larger than the screen, so I'm dragging like 4 or 5 times across. Definitely more of a pain than using scroll bars. I do mis them too.
                                            • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                              Jim Wilkinson
                                              Hello All,

                                              As long as all testing goes well, there will be an option in SolidWorks 2008 SP02 to turn the scrollbars back on. The option will be called "Display scrollbars in graphics view" in Tools, Options, Display/Selection. We have discovered a few repaint issues, etc. when using split views and we are working on fixing those for SP03, but did not want to hold up getting this change into SP02 due to those somewhat minor issues. We are also looking at making some improvements for SP03 so the scrollbars don't interfere with the task pane tabs both when a document is maximized or tiled.
                                                • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                  Paul Hickman
                                                  Personally I've never felt the need to use scrollbars. I've either used the CTRL+MMB or zoomed out then back in to the place where I want to be (much quicker than dragging scrollbars when you have a wheel). This however doesn't make it right that they should be removed altogether. Adding them back in as an option is a good idea imho.
                                                    • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                      Alessandro Frattini

                                                      Paul Hickman wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Personally I've never felt the need to use scrollbars. I've either used the CTRL+MMB or zoomed out then back in to the place where I want to be (much quicker than dragging scrollbars when you have a wheel). This however doesn't make it right that they should be removed altogether. Adding them back in as an option is a good idea imho.

                                                      You are right.... only inexperienced users use them.
                                                      Mom made me with two hands and I use, keyboard and mouse.
                                                      As Matt, I was a reseller and most people use one hand for mouse and the other on the table or in pants.

                                                      Alessandro
                                                    • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                      Matt Lombard
                                                      Jim,

                                                      I appreciate the response, but what you are telling us is that you are again knowingly sending us functionality that is incomplete and buggy (repaint issues, interference problems).

                                                      Why don't you just hold onto it until its ready? Who's in such a rush that they need more interface bugs? What is it that is driving this need to push out software before its ready?

                                                      When you release software knowing full well that you are going to have to issue service packs against it, it implies that speed is more important than quality. When was the last user group meeting you went to when users didn't ask you to slow down and take the time to get it right?

                                                      I like Devon's suggestion that you abolish service packs. Write the code like you only get one chance to do it, instead of treating users like chumps. Like the old Life cereal commercials "Give it to Mikey, Mikey will use anything". Make SP2 the last sp for 08. Make it right. This constantly moving target costs both SW and your customers time and money.
                                                        • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                          Matt Lombard
                                                          Here is the new solution to the scroll bar question in ServicePack 2.0 early visibility. You have paid money for this.

                                                          We just need to be clear about what SolidWorks thinks is a solution here. People use scroll bars, toolbars, task pane and non-maximized windows, along with the confirmation corner and window controls.

                                                          This arrangement saves a lot of mouse travel because everything is literally on top of one another. The task pane tabs are directly on top of the scroll bars, and the Heads Up View toolbar is directly on top of the window controls.

                                                          I don't know about anyone else, but I would be embarassed to put my name on work like this.
                                                            • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                              Jim Wilkinson
                                                              As mentioned in my previous post, the solution is incomplete and there will be more adjustments in SolidWorks 2008 SP03. The choice was to hold it all off entirely until SP03 or add the option for SP02 to provide a suitable solution for the majority of the cases. Most users work with a document maximized and with the SolidWorks screen maximized and therefore, the majority of the time the only problem encountered will be the interference with the task pane tabs (even with this interference, the scrollbars are useful in most zoomed conditions in our testing).

                                                              I think most users will appreciate the ability to use the scrollbars even if it is not perfect in SP02 and therefore made the conscience decision to add the option and not delay it until SP03.
                                                                • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                                  Alessandro Frattini

                                                                  Jim Wilkinson wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  As mentioned in my previous post, the solution is incomplete and there will be more adjustments in SolidWorks 2008 SP03. The choice was to hold it all off entirely until SP03 or add the option for SP02 to provide a suitable solution for the majority of the cases. Most users work with a document maximized and with the SolidWorks screen maximized and therefore, the majority of the time the only problem encountered will be the interference with the task pane tabs (even with this interference, the scrollbars are useful in most zoomed conditions in our testing).



                                                                  I think most users will appreciate the ability to use the scrollbars even if it is not perfect in SP02 and therefore made the conscience decision to add the option and not delay it until SP03.

                                                                  I agree with you.

                                                                  Alessandro
                                                              • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                                Paul Hickman

                                                                matt lombard wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                I like Devon's suggestion that you abolish service packs. Write the code like you only get one chance to do it, instead of treating users like chumps. Like the old Life cereal commercials "Give it to Mikey, Mikey will use anything". Make SP2 the last sp for 08. Make it right. This constantly moving target costs both SW and your customers time and money.

                                                                I don't see how this will help. No software release will ever be perfect - especially when you're always adding enhancements to satisfy customers and keep ahead of the game. If you abolish SP's and just release once every year or 2, how will you fix bugs? Do you tell the customer, 'Sorry, you're going to have to wait a couple of years for that to be fixed??

                                                                Anyway, to bring this back OT, as Jim said, if people want the option that badly, they can have it, even if it does cause the odd problem. At least they then don't have to wait X months for the perfect version to come.

                                                                What's that saying, 'You can please some of the people......'

                                                                  • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                                    Devon Sowell
                                                                    Hello Paul-

                                                                    The point is not to release the software until all the bugs have been resolved and corrected. Many companies are extremely tired of Service Packs. Last year at SolidWorks World, I spoke to a CAD manager that said it costs thousands of dollars to implement each service pack; the costs include the download time, The I.T. Tech Time, the downtime for each computer to install, the Engineer's downtime, the time to check each installation.... It just goes on and on and it has to be repeated 5 times a year.

                                                                    Think about this;

                                                                    Instead of releasing SolidWorks 2008 to the public, SolidWorks hires a dozen top Users to fully test and report bugs, for 12 months. After the 12 months, SolidWorks releases the fully mature and tested, bug free software. Sounds nice , doesn't it?

                                                                    While SolidWorks tests their software, us Users are using version 2007, Service Pack 5 and we are productive, and we don't have to install any Service Packs.

                                                                    As a User since 1999, I used to get exited about new versions, not any more. Why? Because each year the new release is full of bugs and problems, year after year. I've installed about 9 X 5 = 45 Service Packs (actually way more , remember the 14 Service Packs of 2001?), and I'm just worn out and losing interest fast. It just feels like a waste of my time. I design Parts and Assemblies, I don't want to manage SolidWorks' problems.
                                                                      • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                                        Paul Hickman
                                                                        Hi Devon,

                                                                        I understand what you're saying... but, to release 2008 in 2009? Hmm.. then SWX have to wait 12 months before they can boast about new enhancements and we mortals have to wait 12 months before being able to use them? Not going to happen.

                                                                        1. SWX need to be seen to be at the front in this highly competitive industry.
                                                                        2. Hiring a dozen users to test for 12 months will cost $$$ -a cost that will most certainly be passed on to users.
                                                                        3. Personally speaking as a Wildfire user, I dispaire at having to wait 2 years before major releases (which you then find out was hardly any different to the last).
                                                                        4. Even after a full year of testing, there is no guarentee of a 100% bug free package - will SWX spend another X months fixing before releasing?

                                                                        I'm sure SWX decisions are based mostly on risk vs benefit and it's pretty clear that overall, what they are doing is working (excepting 2001 which was a bad year).

                                                                        Regarding the CAD manager you spoke of I think maybe he was a little too keen to get new releases, which if speaking honestly I would say was his mistake. The most SP's I installed were 2, maybe 3 per year. If and when my new company go to SWX, much as I'd like to I know that I won't be touching 2008 until 2nd quater at the earliest, even if they switched today.

                                                                        My only suggestion - SWX could release Betas of new releases free of charge. I think enough users could spend time giving it a going over to make it worth while.
                                                                          • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                                            Devon Sowell
                                                                            Hello Paul-

                                                                            1. SWX need to be seen to be at the front in this highly competitive industry.

                                                                            They are.

                                                                            2. Hiring a dozen users to test for 12 months will cost $$$ -a cost that will most certainly be passed on to users.

                                                                            I'd pay for that. So far, I've spent thousand of dollars of my own time managing SolidWorks.

                                                                            3. Personally speaking as a Wildfire user, I dispaire at having to wait 2 years before major releases (which you then find out was hardly any different to the last).

                                                                            I'd wait for bug free software. 2007 SP5 works great for me right now, today.

                                                                            4. Even after a full year of testing, there is no guarentee of a 100% bug free package - will SWX spend another X months fixing before releasing?

                                                                            I provide Part and Assembly designs all day long. I don't release them for production until they're fully tested and reviewed.


                                                                            I'm sure SWX decisions are based mostly on risk vs benefit and it's pretty clear that overall, what they are doing is working (excepting 2001 which was a bad year).

                                                                            It's not working for me and many, many Users. I consult to 25 companies using SolidWorks.

                                                                            Regarding the CAD manager you spoke of I think maybe he was a little too keen to get new releases, which if speaking honestly I would say was his mistake. The most SP's I installed were 2, maybe 3 per year. If and when my new company go to SWX, much as I'd like to I know that I won't be touching 2008 until 2nd quater at the earliest, even if they switched today.

                                                                            So, even you don't install all Service Packs.

                                                                            My only suggestion - SWX could release Betas of new releases free of charge. I think enough users could spend time giving it a going over to make it worth while.

                                                                            See item 2 above.
                                                                              • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                                                Paul Hickman

                                                                                Devon Sowell wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                So, even you don't install all Service Packs.

                                                                                Certainly not. I don't buy any software as soon as it's released, neither do I buy new car until at least 12 months after launch and I would never buy a newly built house. In fact I rarely buy anything as soon as it's release becasue I know nothing is ever perfect first time out - there will always been some problem or other that needs fixing. Hopefully if I wait a while, most of the problems have been found and I get a reasonably reliable product. Hence in SWX, I can skip the first couple of SPs.

                                                                                  • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                                                    Mark Kaiser
                                                                                    On how the scrollbars look coming back.

                                                                                    Yeah, I have to agree, they look like they weren't thought through completely. How may of us are software engineers and know what it really takes to put them back in?

                                                                                    But, I'll be happy just to have them back. I still attempt to use them many times a day even though they're not there! Good work on getting them back. I for one don't really care much what they look like when they come back, and there's probably many that will agree.
                                                                                • 2008 Scroll Bars and Splitters
                                                                                  Alessandro Frattini

                                                                                  Paul Hickman wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Hi Devon,



                                                                                  I understand what you're saying... but, to release 2008 in 2009? Hmm.. then SWX have to wait 12 months before they can boast about new enhancements and we mortals have to wait 12 months before being able to use them? Not going to happen.



                                                                                  1. SWX need to be seen to be at the front in this highly competitive industry.

                                                                                  2. Hiring a dozen users to test for 12 months will cost $$$ -a cost that will most certainly be passed on to users.

                                                                                  3. Personally speaking as a Wildfire user, I dispaire at having to wait 2 years before major releases (which you then find out was hardly any different to the last).

                                                                                  4. Even after a full year of testing, there is no guarentee of a 100% bug free package - will SWX spend another X months fixing before releasing?



                                                                                  I'm sure SWX decisions are based mostly on risk vs benefit and it's pretty clear that overall, what they are doing is working (excepting 2001 which was a bad year).



                                                                                  Regarding the CAD manager you spoke of I think maybe he was a little too keen to get new releases, which if speaking honestly I would say was his mistake. The most SP's I installed were 2, maybe 3 per year. If and when my new company go to SWX, much as I'd like to I know that I won't be touching 2008 until 2nd quater at the earliest, even if they switched today.



                                                                                  My only suggestion - SWX could release Betas of new releases free of charge. I think enough users could spend time giving it a going over to make it worth while.

                                                                                  I agree with you.

                                                                                  Alessandro